The Israel-Palestine Conflict

Forostar, how was that statement prejudiced? Those lands did not ever belong to Palestine to begin with. They belonged to Syria and Jordan.If Israel let have those countries have those territories back, Syria would definitely use theirs as an advantageous  staging area for another attack on Israel. Syria, like Iran has stated that they want to see Israel annihilated. And the reason Israel has this train of thought is that not only did they have to defend themselves from destruction in the Six Day and Yom Kippur  wars, but six million Jews died in the holocaust, and Israel will never, ever allow that to happen again.
 
LooseCannon,

I already gave an answer to your post: Bulets are not the only form of aggression.
They might have left ended invasion, but please read the past news and inside reports from Gaza to see how Israel continued to effect the conditions in which people lived there and how Israel treated people.

Nigel,

Every single nation has bad memories and catastrophes in the past. Latin culture got erased from the world, Japan was bombed with an atomic bomb, Mongols leveled Muslim civilisation, Turkey got almost eradicated in WW1, Germans invaded almost every territory in Europe etc etc etc... Add religious conflicts throught the history to that.

I can't imagine what the world would look like if every country reacted in Israel's way.
 
NigelTufnel said:
but six million Jews died in the holocaust, and Israel will never, ever allow that to happen again.

Yes, I'm sure that the images of their carnage will contribute to that mission. Their neighboring countries will surely live more friendly with them, more than ever, especially since today. And people around the whole world appreciate the way Israel deals with "Hamas". Or not?

Seriously, we need a political solution, a strictly military solution won't happen.

As Perun predicted, I (and probably others) have indeed seen the moving pictures of dead corpes, scared and terrified people.

British prime minister calls for Gaza cease-fire
The Associated Press / Tuesday, January 6, 2009

LONDON: Britain's Prime Minister Gordon Brown warned Tuesday the Middle East faces its darkest moment yet after Israeli attacks killed at least 30 people near a U.N. school in Gaza.

Brown appealed for an immediate cease-fire after Israeli mortar shells struck outside a U.N. school where hundreds of Palestinians had sought refuge. Many of the dead are children.

The Israeli army said its soldiers came under fire from militants hiding in the school and responded.

"This is the darkest moment yet for the Middle East and it affects the whole of the world," Brown told reporters at his Downing Street office. "It's because of that that we must get humanitarian aid that we are promising in."

The attack was the deadliest since Israel sent ground forces into Gaza last weekend. The assault is part of a larger offensive against the ruling Hamas militant group that has killed nearly 600 Palestinians.

Brown called for an end to the violence and said that means "no rocket attacks into Gaza as well as no Israeli troops in Gaza."

"We will need international engagement," he added. "It is not possible to see a solution to this without some kind of international engagement that will protect the security of the Israeli people and will create the viability for open borders to be given to the Palestinian area in Gaza."

U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice will travel to the United Nations on Tuesday in a bid to broker a sustainable cease-fire. British Foreign Secretary David Miliband will also attend the talks.
 
What way is that? They are not using the holocaust as a battle cry. Israel's very existence has been openly threatened by several state governments. Recently even. Not 1000 years ago, not 100 years ago, not 10 years ago, but last year.  They are combating terrorsits and cowards. Cowards that choose to take the fight to schools. Cowards who would go to any means to destroy Israel. Hamas has no intention of working side by side with the Israelis to build a better more peaceful middle east. For that matter I don't think Israel wants to sit down at the table with Hamas either. I agree with  you, Forostar, that there does indeed need to be a politcal solution to the situation. But sadly I think that window has closed for now.
 
Interestingly enough, Israel attacked a school last night, claiming it was a spot Hamas was using to launch rockets from.  Thing is? I believe Israel, because it's exactly what Hamas would do - put Israel in a position wherein they have to endanger children.
 
The last word hasn't been said about this school.

Be careful with Israel-propaganda. I rather believe United Nations who deny this story.

UN rejects claim on school

THE UN has disputed claims that Hamas militants fired mortars from the Gaza school that has suffered the deadliest attack of the war with Israel.

Three shells hit Fakhura, a girls elementary school in the Jabalya refugee camp in northern Gaza, at about 3pm on Tuesday (12am yesterday), according to UN Relief and Works Agency spokesman Christopher Gunness.

At least 43 people were killed and 55 wounded in the school, where hundreds of Palestinians had sought refuge from the fighting, pushing the Palestinian death toll above 680 since the conflict began on December 27.

Two people were killed when an artillery shell hit a UN school in the southern city of Khan Younis. Three people also died in an air strike on another UN school in Gaza City's Shati refugee camp in the centre of the strip.

The carnage appeared to intensify international efforts to arrange a ceasefire - just as deadly strikes on civilians in previous conflicts in Lebanon raised pressure on Israel to halt hostilities.

Israel moved quickly to explain the attack on the Jabalya school, saying its forces had been fired on first. The casualties included Hamas militants Imad and Hassan Abu Askar, both of whom had fired mortar shells at troops from the school, military officials said.

However, John Ging, the top UN refugee official in Gaza, said UN staff and Palestinian families in the school compound had been screened for weapons, and he disputed Israel's claim that mortars were fired from inside.

"As far as we are concerned, that is not true, but if Israel has evidence of that they need to provide it to an independent inquiry," Mr Ging said.

He added: "There's nowhere safe in Gaza. Everyone here is terrorised and traumatised."

Speaking after an initial investigation last night, Mr Gunness denied militants were at the school: "We are 99.9 per cent sure that there were no militants or militant activities in the school and the school compound."

Mr Gunness said earlier that schools were clearly marked with a UN flag and that the GPS co-ordinates of all UN installations in Gaza had been given some time ago to the Israelis.

He said UNRWA wanted an impartial probe of the Israeli shelling that could also determine whether militants had used the school for a mortar attack.

Mohammad Awad, in hospital with shrapnel wounds to the legs and face, said he had come to the school with his family after his house was destroyed in the bombing of a neighbouring home of a Hamas leader. He and other men had been sitting in the schoolyard when shells hit the compound.

"I saw bodies flying and people torn to pieces," he said.

Umm Ibrahim said she had lost an eight-year-old daughter and two sons, 11 and 14. She had come to the school after a phone warning from the Israelis that the family house would be struck because one son was a Hamas militant. "We escaped death in our house, but it pursued us to the school," she said. "What can we do? Where should we go?"

Although Israel said its return fire landed outside the school, witnesses described a series of blasts, which Israeli officials said suggested militants had rigged the building with explosives.

"We face a very delicate situation where Hamas is using the citizens of Gaza as a protective vest," said military spokesman Brigadier General Avi Benayahu.

The incident renewed questions about Israel's ability to wage a precision war in densely populated Gaza even as its forces pushed deeper into the narrow coastal territory.

Heavy clashes continued in the north yesterday and airstrikes across the densely populated coastal strip. An airstrike in the Gaza City neighbourhood of Zeitun, where much of the heavy fighting has taken place since ground forces invaded on Saturday, left one armed militant dead and three wounded, medics said.

Clashes were continuing in Zeitun, and there were reports of airstrikes on the southern cities of Khan Younis and Rafah. One rocket made the deepest strike yet into Israel - about 32km from Tel Aviv.
 
I don't believe anyone right now, because no source is credible. There is chaos in Gaza, and nobody can say anything for certain at this point. Even if it's the United Nations.
 
I'd ask how the UN can distinguish between civilians and Hamas fighters dressed in civilian clothes.  Granted, I don't know enough about this school thing, but I recall reading somewhere that there was fighting going on around the school.  If that was the case, I wouldn't be surprised that Hamas were using it as a storage/hideout/whatever.  I also can't really imagine what motive the Israeli army would have for directly firing on a civilian school.

I'm with Perun on this.  I'm finding it hard to trust anyone on details right now.  There might have been Hamas fighters in the school, or there might have not.  How can we know?  How can the UN know that some civilians weren't really underground Hamas who were using the school as a staging point, and how can the Israelis back up their claims that there were Hamas in that school?
 
Forostar said:
Why would United Nations be an incredible source?

It's war. There is chaos. Confusion. Nobody can double-check information.
 
I'll wait until the war is over. And even then, I won't believe everything right away. The Middle East Conflict is something where neutral and trustworthy sources are rare. Everything has to be read critically.
 
I don't know, I can't proove it but I feel that with anyother state UN won't tolerate these things happened
and I don't think that Israel is in such danger
it has all the western countries on its side and US well more than friend

nobody wants Israel dissapear except the ultra-fanatics -and so ?? give world peace and I'll show you how many fanatics you'll get

the responsibility of Israel is huge in this war, but western world is too depended to react
 
Foro, I'm with Perun.  Absolutely, I can believe that Hamas would launch attacks from a school.  Absolutely, I can believe that Israel would attack a school and then claim that they had been fired on from it afterwards.  I don't think anyone can be trusted.  As you have pointed out, 41 years later we are still discussing the Six Days War and what exactly happened there.

no5, there are a lot of ultra-fanatics out there in Hamas, and peace can't be unilateral - you can't turn your other cheek to people swinging with knives.
 
The U.N. is a joke. The five permanent security council members only have their own best interests in mind. Look at how well they are dealing with the situation in Darfur, how can we expect them to deal with the Israeli / Palestinian conflict? Both sides are going to stick to their stories about the attack on the school. 
 
Dude, the UN isn't a joke.  It's not as powerful as it was originally hoped it would be, but it does a lot of good in the world.  There's a very interesting subculture in the US that suggests the United Nations is worthless, but it has done quite a bit.  It just doesn't have the power to force people to stop killing others - the UN can't invade the Sudan or Israel and end the fighting.
 
The handful of spectacular failures the UN has undoubtedly had (Near East, Rwanda et al) does not in any way outweigh the many successes they are responsible for. They are not so spectacular, so they are not in public conscience, but they have prevented many conflicts and catastrophes, provided a forum to settle disputes and laid the seeds for so much in areas that are beyond warfare, international relations and disaster relief.
 
LooseCannon said:
Foro, I'm with Perun.  Absolutely, I can believe that Hamas would launch attacks from a school.  Absolutely, I can believe that Israel would attack a school and then claim that they had been fired on from it afterwards.  I don't think anyone can be trusted.  As you have pointed out, 41 years later we are still discussing the Six Days War and what exactly happened there.

It simply means that you prefer to disbelieve the UN and that you rather believe unproven war-propaganda instead.

About the Six Days War: I am not the one who disbelieves the UN worker from that video I provided. Let others believe less neutral parties.

And to disbelieve everything until the very end of this: I wonder Per, how do you do this?
How can you supress the slightest form of thought? You think without judging? I think that would be very healthy, but I am afraid I need a lot of training before I could do that.
 
Forostar said:
And to disbelieve everything until the very end of this: I don't want to offend you Perun, so let me speak for myself: If I could do that, I'd have the idea that I would be denying the things I rather not like to think about.

It doesn't have anything to do with denial. I know about all the Palestinian children dead from Israeli attacks. However, I also know about all the Israeli children dead from Palestinian attacks. I'm not weighing one life for another. In my eyes, either is wrong. About the bombing of the schools: As far as I'm concerned, it could be the way the Israelis say it is, and it could be the way the UN say it. I'm not believing either side until I see undeniable proof. I doubt I will ever see it, so I'm leaving that question open.
It is my experience, that direct reports from war zones are inaccurate, based on misunderstandings or distorted either by the primary source itself, or by secondary or tertiary sources. I'm not laying the blame on those who report things from war zones. It's not their fault- but what they report is usually based on subjective impressions which may not always cover the entire thing. Again, it's not their fault. In war, a reporter usually does not have the possibility to gather an impression from both sides of the front. They can't double-check their information, because sometimes, their source of information may be gone altogether a few minutes afterwards.
And then, of course, there is the distortion of secondary and tertiary sources, which may have happened and may not have happened, and may be unintentional and may be intentional.
 
Then you add in the deliberate misinformation on both sides of the conflict, and you have a giant clusterfuck.
 
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