No, you just don't understand what they want to do. If you did, you would in fact recognize them as the best in the business - better than Hezbollah, better than Al Qaeda.
The Israel-Palestine Conflict
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Nigel Tufnel
Ancient Mariner
True, Hezbollah and Al Queda have no political apparatus, unlike Hamas. On the other hand Hezbollah is supported by Iran.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
And who wants to understand what Israel does? As told, this about much more than rockets alone:
Gaza humanitarian crisis deepens
By Heather Sharp / BBC News, Jerusalem
Aid agencies say the already fragile humanitarian situation in the Gaza Strip has deteriorated dramatically since Israel began its military offensive.
OVERVIEW
Israel has imposed a crippling blockade on Gaza for the past 18 months, allowing little more than humanitarian basics into the coastal territory.
Health, energy and water infrastructure were already close to breaking point before the fighting broke out.
Israel has stopped maintaining, as it did for the first week of the operation, that there is "no humanitarian crisis" in the territory.
It now says it is working with international organisations to solve humanitarian problems.
Israel says it is working with agencies to solve the humanitarian problems
But it says Hamas is responsible for the humanitarian situation in Gaza, and is "holding the people hostage" by targeting Israeli civilians.
On Monday, UN humanitarian coordinator Max Gaylard said: "Large numbers of people, including many children, are hungry, they are cold and without ready access to medical facilities, without access to electricity and running water, above all they are terrified - that by any measure is a humanitarian crisis."
FOOD
Save the Children says there is a "severe shortage of food", but Israel claims international agencies' warehouses are well stocked and points out that it has allowed several convoys of trucks into Gaza during the fighting.
Some 750,000 people - half Gaza's population - are dependent on food hand-outs from the UN relief agency, Unrwa. In December, it had to suspend distribution at times because it ran out of flour after Israel closed the border crossings into Gaza repeatedly.
On Monday it said it had two days' worth of flour stocks, although another delivery was expected. Unrwa stressed that although food supplies were coming in on trucks, the necessary volumes could not be shipped unless the conveyor belt for grain at the Karni crossing - close to the scene of recent heavy ground clashes - was re-opened.
Unrwa said the fighting, and the Israeli military blocking the main north-south road were hampering distribution, and that two of its distribution centres had been forced to close on Sunday.
Another agency, the World Food Programme, has 3,800 tonnes of food in Gaza, but much of this is in warehouses near the Karni crossing, also inaccessible because of the fighting. More is in the warehouses of the Palestinian interior ministry, whose workers are too afraid of the violence to turn up for work, it says.
The UN says 23 of Gaza's 47 bakeries have been forced to close due to shortages of cooking gas, and that another 14 are operating sporadically.
The UN says 23 of Gaza's 47 bakeries have been forced to close
In addition, Israel's destruction of smuggling tunnels, used to bring in both weapons and other products, has disrupted the flow of other food items.
Prices for many foodstuffs have risen.
And, because of the long term economic impact of the blockade, plus shortages of bank notes, many Gazans cannot afford to buy much in the first place.
MEDICAL RESOURCES
Hospitals have been under extreme pressure, with some 2,500 people wounded in the fighting.
Emergency workers are struggling to reach the wounded and a number are reported to have died trying.
The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) has been attempting to co-ordinate safe passage with the Israelis, but says in many cases this has not been possible or has taken too long.
"Basically people are dying while they're waiting," said spokeswoman Sophie-Anne Bonefeld.
An ICRC team of specialist medical personnel, led by a war surgeon, waited for nearly four days before being given access to Gaza, while doctors in the territory's hospitals have been working around the clock.
Gaza holds 1.5m inhabitants, more than half of them children
Medical supplies are entering the territory on the trucks Israel has allowed in, but aid agencies say there are difficulties getting the correct items to the places where they are needed.
And some urgently needed items remain unavailable - the ICRC, for example, says it is trying to get 1,000 doses of tetanus vaccine through the crossings because, according to its information, there is none left in Gaza.
Five of Unrwa's 18 medical clinics have closed because of the fighting.
The UN said on Sunday that all of Gaza City's hospitals had been without mains electricity for 48 hours.
They are depending on generators designed only to work as back-ups, and have suffered from shortages of spare parts due to the blockade.
In Gaza City's biggest hospital, al-Shifa, the lives of some 70 intensive-care patients hooked up to machines are dependent on the generators - and the UN says the hospital has only three days' fuel supply to power them.
ENERGY
The UN says a million people in Gaza are without electricity. The territory's only power plant, which supplies much of Gaza City, shut down on 30 December because it ran out of industrial diesel fuel.
A delivery of 215,000 litres of industrial diesel were transferred into Gaza on 5 January - about 10% of what the Supreme Court has set as a minimum weekly level to be allowed through under the blockade.
Another 100,000 litres of regular diesel were also transferred, but on Monday night neither delivery had been picked up on the Palestinian side because secure passage had not been agreed for the workers transporting it, the Israeli NGO Gisha said.
There are also severe shortages of cooking gas.
Gaza's power plant is frequently forced to shut down due to fuel shortages
Israel says the one crossing through which fuel can be transported - Nahal Oz - was closed for the first week of the operation "due to security concerns".
WATER AND SANITATION
The UN estimated on 5 January that 250,000 people did not have access to running water.
Many of Gaza's wells rely on pumps normally powered with electricity that are now dependent on generators, and fuel is running out.
According to Gaza's water utility body, 48 of the territory's 130 wells are not working at all due to lack of power and damage to the pipes, while another 45 are operating partially.
The ICRC says half a million people in Gaza City may be without water within 48 hours as fuel for the pumps runs out.
Gaza's water utility body also warned on Sunday that sewage was flowing into populated areas, farmland and the sea, as five of Gaza's 37 wastewater pumping stations had shut down because of power cuts.
Many wells are not working at all due to lack of power and damaged pipes
The rest would shut down within three or four days unless diesel is delivered, it said.
Even if diesel enters Gaza, transporting it safely to where it is needed may be impossible because of the fighting.
The authority also fears that shelling may damage a large sewage lagoon in the north of the territory, and flood the urban area of Beit Lahiya.
Gaza humanitarian crisis deepens
By Heather Sharp / BBC News, Jerusalem
Aid agencies say the already fragile humanitarian situation in the Gaza Strip has deteriorated dramatically since Israel began its military offensive.
OVERVIEW
Israel has imposed a crippling blockade on Gaza for the past 18 months, allowing little more than humanitarian basics into the coastal territory.
Health, energy and water infrastructure were already close to breaking point before the fighting broke out.
Israel has stopped maintaining, as it did for the first week of the operation, that there is "no humanitarian crisis" in the territory.
It now says it is working with international organisations to solve humanitarian problems.
Israel says it is working with agencies to solve the humanitarian problems
But it says Hamas is responsible for the humanitarian situation in Gaza, and is "holding the people hostage" by targeting Israeli civilians.
On Monday, UN humanitarian coordinator Max Gaylard said: "Large numbers of people, including many children, are hungry, they are cold and without ready access to medical facilities, without access to electricity and running water, above all they are terrified - that by any measure is a humanitarian crisis."
FOOD
Save the Children says there is a "severe shortage of food", but Israel claims international agencies' warehouses are well stocked and points out that it has allowed several convoys of trucks into Gaza during the fighting.
Some 750,000 people - half Gaza's population - are dependent on food hand-outs from the UN relief agency, Unrwa. In December, it had to suspend distribution at times because it ran out of flour after Israel closed the border crossings into Gaza repeatedly.
On Monday it said it had two days' worth of flour stocks, although another delivery was expected. Unrwa stressed that although food supplies were coming in on trucks, the necessary volumes could not be shipped unless the conveyor belt for grain at the Karni crossing - close to the scene of recent heavy ground clashes - was re-opened.
Unrwa said the fighting, and the Israeli military blocking the main north-south road were hampering distribution, and that two of its distribution centres had been forced to close on Sunday.
Another agency, the World Food Programme, has 3,800 tonnes of food in Gaza, but much of this is in warehouses near the Karni crossing, also inaccessible because of the fighting. More is in the warehouses of the Palestinian interior ministry, whose workers are too afraid of the violence to turn up for work, it says.
The UN says 23 of Gaza's 47 bakeries have been forced to close due to shortages of cooking gas, and that another 14 are operating sporadically.
The UN says 23 of Gaza's 47 bakeries have been forced to close
In addition, Israel's destruction of smuggling tunnels, used to bring in both weapons and other products, has disrupted the flow of other food items.
Prices for many foodstuffs have risen.
And, because of the long term economic impact of the blockade, plus shortages of bank notes, many Gazans cannot afford to buy much in the first place.
MEDICAL RESOURCES
Hospitals have been under extreme pressure, with some 2,500 people wounded in the fighting.
Emergency workers are struggling to reach the wounded and a number are reported to have died trying.
The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) has been attempting to co-ordinate safe passage with the Israelis, but says in many cases this has not been possible or has taken too long.
"Basically people are dying while they're waiting," said spokeswoman Sophie-Anne Bonefeld.
An ICRC team of specialist medical personnel, led by a war surgeon, waited for nearly four days before being given access to Gaza, while doctors in the territory's hospitals have been working around the clock.
Gaza holds 1.5m inhabitants, more than half of them children
Medical supplies are entering the territory on the trucks Israel has allowed in, but aid agencies say there are difficulties getting the correct items to the places where they are needed.
And some urgently needed items remain unavailable - the ICRC, for example, says it is trying to get 1,000 doses of tetanus vaccine through the crossings because, according to its information, there is none left in Gaza.
Five of Unrwa's 18 medical clinics have closed because of the fighting.
The UN said on Sunday that all of Gaza City's hospitals had been without mains electricity for 48 hours.
They are depending on generators designed only to work as back-ups, and have suffered from shortages of spare parts due to the blockade.
In Gaza City's biggest hospital, al-Shifa, the lives of some 70 intensive-care patients hooked up to machines are dependent on the generators - and the UN says the hospital has only three days' fuel supply to power them.
ENERGY
The UN says a million people in Gaza are without electricity. The territory's only power plant, which supplies much of Gaza City, shut down on 30 December because it ran out of industrial diesel fuel.
A delivery of 215,000 litres of industrial diesel were transferred into Gaza on 5 January - about 10% of what the Supreme Court has set as a minimum weekly level to be allowed through under the blockade.
Another 100,000 litres of regular diesel were also transferred, but on Monday night neither delivery had been picked up on the Palestinian side because secure passage had not been agreed for the workers transporting it, the Israeli NGO Gisha said.
There are also severe shortages of cooking gas.
Gaza's power plant is frequently forced to shut down due to fuel shortages
Israel says the one crossing through which fuel can be transported - Nahal Oz - was closed for the first week of the operation "due to security concerns".
WATER AND SANITATION
The UN estimated on 5 January that 250,000 people did not have access to running water.
Many of Gaza's wells rely on pumps normally powered with electricity that are now dependent on generators, and fuel is running out.
According to Gaza's water utility body, 48 of the territory's 130 wells are not working at all due to lack of power and damage to the pipes, while another 45 are operating partially.
The ICRC says half a million people in Gaza City may be without water within 48 hours as fuel for the pumps runs out.
Gaza's water utility body also warned on Sunday that sewage was flowing into populated areas, farmland and the sea, as five of Gaza's 37 wastewater pumping stations had shut down because of power cuts.
Many wells are not working at all due to lack of power and damaged pipes
The rest would shut down within three or four days unless diesel is delivered, it said.
Even if diesel enters Gaza, transporting it safely to where it is needed may be impossible because of the fighting.
The authority also fears that shelling may damage a large sewage lagoon in the north of the territory, and flood the urban area of Beit Lahiya.
NigelTufnel said:
Hezbollah absolutely does have political apparatus - they're currently part of the governance of Lebanon.
And I am sorry that Gaza is in a bad place, but I think Israel is still going to act first for the safety of Israelis, and then worry about the Palestinians. An attitude that is indeed callous in some ways, but it's the way Israel always has acted. Hamas knew this would happen when they resumed rocket strikes - they made a conscious decision to do so.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
I am beginning to change opinion about this operation.
I know that Israel wants to try something but more than 500 deaths and more than 2500 wounded means that the whole thing is getting disproportional. The violence is disproportional.
Israel also denies access to anyone in the area. No independent viewers, no journalists. Also not if there would be a break.
That's the current situation.
Now the past again:
@Perun, coming back to an earlier post of yours:
Don't forget that in April 2008 Hamas was prepared to take a truce if Israel would give the stolen lands of 1967 back (I know that in addition it was also said that Hamas would never outright formally recognize Israel, but is that the most important reason to block progress in this conflict? Is that the reason why this operation is going on?)
What did Israel do? Israel ignored it. How should Hamas threat thiefs if kindly asking won't work? When the majority of the world ignores them?
They try to get their lands back, by themselves, by ANY means. Does that language sound familiar Tufnel? Would you like Canada to steal some part of a US state?
In case some people don't know what I am talking about: Israel made their 1948 border bigger over the years.
B I G G ER
That's why Israelian borders are called: unofficial borders.
The USA brought Hamas into the elections. Hamas won these elections in an honest and free way. The whole west responded: thank you, but we won't recognize you, you are terrorists.
Add Israel's inhuman treatment in the past years, and see my previous post to learn about it. It's not the story of one man, if that helps.
Is it so strange to support or even to become a member of Hamas in these unjust circumstances?
No, it isn't.
You know what I find strange? To call Israel's defense legitimate and the resistance (which is a form of defense) from Palestina illegitimate.
Let's not use different norms for these two parties.
-----
I found this (part of this) article interesting:
Occupation
Maybe Hamas cannot hold on to this firm standpoint under pressure from the overwhelming military superiority of Israel. And maybe Hamas will be forced to accept such an unwritten cease-fire. But the example of the growth of Hezbollah since 1996 will possibly give hope to Hamas. Hope that after the Israeli storm subsides, it can become the most important Palestinian resistance movement, with the ambition - unlike its rival Fatah, which has been engaged in fruitless peace negotiations for 15 years since the signing of the Oslo Accords - of finally bringing an end to the Israeli occupation that has now lasted for almost 42 years.
I know that Israel wants to try something but more than 500 deaths and more than 2500 wounded means that the whole thing is getting disproportional. The violence is disproportional.
Israel also denies access to anyone in the area. No independent viewers, no journalists. Also not if there would be a break.
That's the current situation.
Now the past again:
@Perun, coming back to an earlier post of yours:
Don't forget that in April 2008 Hamas was prepared to take a truce if Israel would give the stolen lands of 1967 back (I know that in addition it was also said that Hamas would never outright formally recognize Israel, but is that the most important reason to block progress in this conflict? Is that the reason why this operation is going on?)
What did Israel do? Israel ignored it. How should Hamas threat thiefs if kindly asking won't work? When the majority of the world ignores them?
They try to get their lands back, by themselves, by ANY means. Does that language sound familiar Tufnel? Would you like Canada to steal some part of a US state?
In case some people don't know what I am talking about: Israel made their 1948 border bigger over the years.
B I G G ER
That's why Israelian borders are called: unofficial borders.
The USA brought Hamas into the elections. Hamas won these elections in an honest and free way. The whole west responded: thank you, but we won't recognize you, you are terrorists.
Add Israel's inhuman treatment in the past years, and see my previous post to learn about it. It's not the story of one man, if that helps.
Is it so strange to support or even to become a member of Hamas in these unjust circumstances?
No, it isn't.
You know what I find strange? To call Israel's defense legitimate and the resistance (which is a form of defense) from Palestina illegitimate.
Let's not use different norms for these two parties.
-----
I found this (part of this) article interesting:
Occupation
Maybe Hamas cannot hold on to this firm standpoint under pressure from the overwhelming military superiority of Israel. And maybe Hamas will be forced to accept such an unwritten cease-fire. But the example of the growth of Hezbollah since 1996 will possibly give hope to Hamas. Hope that after the Israeli storm subsides, it can become the most important Palestinian resistance movement, with the ambition - unlike its rival Fatah, which has been engaged in fruitless peace negotiations for 15 years since the signing of the Oslo Accords - of finally bringing an end to the Israeli occupation that has now lasted for almost 42 years.
Forostar, don't you think you're oversimplifying the situation? Israel's actions are to isolate the area attacking them. Yes, they are keeping journalists out to the best of their ability - but that ability isn't good enough, as evidenced by all the reports we receive from Gaza itself.
Are the amounts of deaths disproportionate? Absolutely. But, here is the thing: if Hamas was truly interested in peace, they would never have taken a shot at Israel. If Hamas was truly interested in peace, they wouldn't have waged war with Fatah.
So, here is my question for you: what should Israel do when Hamas strikes it with rockets? Go back to when this crisis started, when Hamas started popping off shots at Israel - what was Israel supposed to do?
Are the amounts of deaths disproportionate? Absolutely. But, here is the thing: if Hamas was truly interested in peace, they would never have taken a shot at Israel. If Hamas was truly interested in peace, they wouldn't have waged war with Fatah.
So, here is my question for you: what should Israel do when Hamas strikes it with rockets? Go back to when this crisis started, when Hamas started popping off shots at Israel - what was Israel supposed to do?
There are always things you can do within your borders. Crossing your borders to kill attackers should always be the last choice. Killing civilians? It is unacceptable on every level.
True, absolutely true: Hamas is being lunatic. There is something terribly wrong with those people. But I will ask my questions once more (which go unnoticed and unanswered every damn time):
- What are the reasons that make these people act mindlessly? What pushes them to do so?
- Do you honestly think that this madness could stop if those reasons are not addressed and solved?
I really don't think Isreal is doing what it can do within its borders. The impression I get is that they never think of the possibility that they may have their wrongs in their part as well. And they have an unlimited international (USA) support which prevents them to think otherwise, or others to suggest otherwise.
Israel have no mistakes and is being totally humanitarian and fair, but there are some psychopaths firing rockets with unexplainable motives, oh sorry, because they don't want peace. Or because Iran wants Israel erased from the face of the earth. No country would do what another country wants it to do without being threatened, unless there is an opportunity for exploitation, that makes them vulnerable to manipulation. Why not Jordan, why not Egypt, why not Syria but Palestinians then?
I think this is another over-simplification. I agree with you %100 that Hamas is not showing interest in peace at the moment.
But you are being biased. Over-simplification prevents people to see this: Are bullets the only manifestation of aggression?
Forcing people live in miserable conditions with your economic sanctions, what is this? Not treating people as equal humans unless they accept the direction you designed for them, what is this? Waiting them to internalize this bad treatment and the fact that the lands which once belonged to those people aren't theirs anymore, what is this? Isn't this an aggression?
People are always asking "what would you do if somebody was firing rockets to your country?" valid question, I must admit.
But why don't you never ask "What would you do if a country was treating my country and my citizens this way? What if they were acting against my rights as a human?" Firing rockets is an unacceptable answer, but you wouldn't deny that there will be some kind of reaction, right?
As I always tell to two people who are in disagreement: The fact that you are not yelling at each other doesn't mean that you are not being aggressive and violent towards each other.
True, absolutely true: Hamas is being lunatic. There is something terribly wrong with those people. But I will ask my questions once more (which go unnoticed and unanswered every damn time):
- What are the reasons that make these people act mindlessly? What pushes them to do so?
- Do you honestly think that this madness could stop if those reasons are not addressed and solved?
I really don't think Isreal is doing what it can do within its borders. The impression I get is that they never think of the possibility that they may have their wrongs in their part as well. And they have an unlimited international (USA) support which prevents them to think otherwise, or others to suggest otherwise.
Israel have no mistakes and is being totally humanitarian and fair, but there are some psychopaths firing rockets with unexplainable motives, oh sorry, because they don't want peace. Or because Iran wants Israel erased from the face of the earth. No country would do what another country wants it to do without being threatened, unless there is an opportunity for exploitation, that makes them vulnerable to manipulation. Why not Jordan, why not Egypt, why not Syria but Palestinians then?
LooseCannon said:
I think this is another over-simplification. I agree with you %100 that Hamas is not showing interest in peace at the moment.
But you are being biased. Over-simplification prevents people to see this: Are bullets the only manifestation of aggression?
Forcing people live in miserable conditions with your economic sanctions, what is this? Not treating people as equal humans unless they accept the direction you designed for them, what is this? Waiting them to internalize this bad treatment and the fact that the lands which once belonged to those people aren't theirs anymore, what is this? Isn't this an aggression?
People are always asking "what would you do if somebody was firing rockets to your country?" valid question, I must admit.
But why don't you never ask "What would you do if a country was treating my country and my citizens this way? What if they were acting against my rights as a human?" Firing rockets is an unacceptable answer, but you wouldn't deny that there will be some kind of reaction, right?
As I always tell to two people who are in disagreement: The fact that you are not yelling at each other doesn't mean that you are not being aggressive and violent towards each other.
eddiesson said:
I will gladly answer these questions. Hamas, and those who support them, act mindlessly for any number of reasons. You can start with religious fanaticism at the very top of the list. Many people who join Hamas do so out of desperation - because they have lost friends and family in the fighting. Because Israelis killed their father, or grandfather, or great-grandfather. Some feel that Israel is oppressing them, indeed. There is a lot of reasons, but I would say religious fanaticism plus desperation is the biggest one.
I understand your point - Gaza is a not very nice place to live. However, I do not believe that if Israel removed all restrictions on Gaza that the situation would alter. Hamas is an implacable foe who has, as most people recognize, absolutely no desire for peace, and have constantly proven they can't be reasoned with.
eddiesson, your points are good ones - Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is not the height of human rights in many ways. But they are in a difficult position - many Palestinians want to destroy Israel, and modern Israel is bound to them by a chain. I know what you mean by the haughtiness of Israel, they never admit a mistake. But as Perun has pointed out - they act strong out of fear of appearing weak.
Let's remember that Israel was in the driver's seat in the region for a long time - it occupied large amounts of Egypt and had soundly crushed Jordan and Lebanon in war. All of those states, except for Hezbollah in Lebanon, have accepted that Israel is going to exist, and are working towards closer agreements with them. Egypt, of course, has been the main go-between with Hamas and Israel.
Israel treats the Palestinians they way they do because they can't trust them. Restrictions *are* easing in the West Bank, because Fatah has tried to work with Israel, somewhat. But Gaza is controlled by Hamas, which has never tried to work with Israel unless it was temporarily expedient to them.
I'm certainly of the opinion that the Palestinians deserve a state of their own. And slowly, Israel is working towards that with the valid organizations. But Hamas has proven, time and time again, that despite their simplistic demands, they are not actually interested in peace and harmony. They are interested in a Palestinian state wholly on their own terms, and dominated by their religiously extreme organization.
And this is primarily directed at Forostar: Hamas didn't just lob one or two rockets into Israel and get a massive counterattack. Since the supposed "truce" of 2008, dozens of rockets and mortars were shot at Israel, and Israel killed several people who had dug a tunnel under their lines to attack and capture or kill their soldiers. That's when things stepped up, but even in the truce, Hamas was still firing rockets. During the truce, over 200 rockets and shells were lobbed at Israel.
Hamas, the leaders, know the terrible conditions predispose Palestinians to join their organization and they choose to manipulate the immediate situation so that the amount of misery in Gaza (their area of control) is increased. Hamas isn't interested in peace - they have never shown an interest in anything but finding more people to die for their cause and killing Jews.
I honestly, truly believe you cannot negotiate in good faith with Hamas, not until they prove they are actually willing to stop the fighting.
Thanks for a good reply LooseCannon. But there are still some points I am not comfortable. Let me try to show them.
In Turkey, there is a battle between the army and PKK that wanted to declare independance, to merge with northern Iraq. This battle goes on for over 30 years. Turkish state never admitted its mistakes. Never admitted that it treated its Kurdish citizens badly, never allowed Kurdish language to be used in media. The army kept on killing terrorists, endlessly. All this to show that "WE ARE A STRONG NATION STATE!".
For over 30 years...
And just 2 days ago an official TV station that broadcast in Kurdish language is established. By the very Turkish State... Is Turkey weaker now? or stronger?
I hope it explains about where the strength of a state lies.
And hope Turkey will follow this path. There is still a great distance to make.
You talk about religious fanaticism, I talk about nationalist fanaticism. A fanaticism, again fueled by miserable conditions people were forced to live in, as the state refused to acknowledge their rights.
All this fear, all this hatred, all this pain... Billions of dollars, thousands of lives, tens of years... Did it worth?
LooseCannon said:
In Turkey, there is a battle between the army and PKK that wanted to declare independance, to merge with northern Iraq. This battle goes on for over 30 years. Turkish state never admitted its mistakes. Never admitted that it treated its Kurdish citizens badly, never allowed Kurdish language to be used in media. The army kept on killing terrorists, endlessly. All this to show that "WE ARE A STRONG NATION STATE!".
For over 30 years...
And just 2 days ago an official TV station that broadcast in Kurdish language is established. By the very Turkish State... Is Turkey weaker now? or stronger?
I hope it explains about where the strength of a state lies.
And hope Turkey will follow this path. There is still a great distance to make.
You talk about religious fanaticism, I talk about nationalist fanaticism. A fanaticism, again fueled by miserable conditions people were forced to live in, as the state refused to acknowledge their rights.
All this fear, all this hatred, all this pain... Billions of dollars, thousands of lives, tens of years... Did it worth?
I'll put my question out there again, then: what should Israel do, if what they're doing is wrong. If someone can answer that question, I would appreciate it.
I wanted to withdraw from this pointless argument, but I just had to reply to this:
I never did. I never, ever did that. Read my posts again. I made it clear I was talking about the Hamas, who have been known to force people to blow themselves up, which in my eyes is just as criminal as whatever the Israelis did. The Hamas is sacrificing its own people as pawns for their cause. I have always been talking about the Hamas, not the Palestinians.
And now, let's please take the emotion out of this again. This discussion is not going to change anything. We could all come to a good consensus about what's right and what's wrong, who's evil and who's not and what is the right thing to do, but we're going to turn on the evening news tonight again and see people blowing up each other again.
Forostar said:
I never did. I never, ever did that. Read my posts again. I made it clear I was talking about the Hamas, who have been known to force people to blow themselves up, which in my eyes is just as criminal as whatever the Israelis did. The Hamas is sacrificing its own people as pawns for their cause. I have always been talking about the Hamas, not the Palestinians.
And now, let's please take the emotion out of this again. This discussion is not going to change anything. We could all come to a good consensus about what's right and what's wrong, who's evil and who's not and what is the right thing to do, but we're going to turn on the evening news tonight again and see people blowing up each other again.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
I never said you did Perun. I just wanted to say it. Many people think like this.
LC, fair enough:
You ask a difficult question, but I guess I would stop occupying the lands which are not mine. Then, if (any party) still uses violence I would retaliate. But, like eddiesson says, this kind of action is to me one of the last ones. (The final solution could be carpet bombing or other methods to completely level the whole area).
You call my view oversimplifying the situation?
Funny I had the same idea of you when you earlier said:
Let me ask a question:
Does the small minority of deaths on the Israelian site count more than the larger number of deaths among the Palestinians?
edit: The emotions in this topic are understandable, but we still do not curse eachother.
LC, fair enough:
You ask a difficult question, but I guess I would stop occupying the lands which are not mine. Then, if (any party) still uses violence I would retaliate. But, like eddiesson says, this kind of action is to me one of the last ones. (The final solution could be carpet bombing or other methods to completely level the whole area).
You call my view oversimplifying the situation?
Funny I had the same idea of you when you earlier said:
LooseCannon said:
Let me ask a question:
Does the small minority of deaths on the Israelian site count more than the larger number of deaths among the Palestinians?
edit: The emotions in this topic are understandable, but we still do not curse eachother.
Nigel Tufnel
Ancient Mariner
Forostar, Gaza, the West Bank and the Golan Heights were occupied because Israel was attacked by an Arab Coallition that had the objective of destroying the State of Israel. That is the price those nations paid in failing to achieve those objectives. Israel decided to occupy those areas as a strategic advantage. It makes an attack from Jordan and Syria more difficult. They did'nt one day decide to go on a land grab and subjugate the Palestinians that happened to occupy those lands. When Israel succesfully defened itself during the Six Day War, it decided that it was to thier strategic advantage to hold on to those lands. I believe if they had conceded those territories, we will still would have this unfortunate conflict we are having today. It may be even worse. Hamas is using this conflict to stir this whole mess and garner support from fellow muslim extremists. I mean the rockets they are using are really not that strategicly effective, other than drawing the Israeli Army into battle. But giving the scenario you put fort to me, if the USA fired rockets into Canada in an unprovoked attack, I would expect the mililtary forces in Canada to respond in the strongest possible manner. I will give you an even better one than that. If New Jersey somehow attacked New York, I would expect New York to go kick New Jersey's ass. Maybe because my country was born from war, this is the way I think. But I don't think it is right to condem Israel for attacking Hamas after being fired upon.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
NigelTufnel said:
I find this a prejudiced approach. Why judge something in a negative manner if it has never been tried yet?
When leaders think like this, conflicts can never be solved. If we can't see why there is Palestinian resistance, we fail to judge the whole conflict rightfully.
LooseCannon said:
Israel is the strongest country in that area: Economically, technologically, militarily, politically. I think Israel has the initiative.
I am sure that, if they are not afraid to ask "what we might be doing to establish the peace here?" with sincerity, they can come with the answer.
If they treat Palestinian people (not hamas) as humans instead of potential threat and enemies to be vanquished, if they don't consider this situation like a cake to get the biggest slice possible, if they can put their fears aside, if they are as determined as they are for this operation, they (and only they) can come up with the right moves to establish the peace.
Hamas will dissolve very fast if there is a peace. The proof is that it lost its support during every ceasefire.
If Israel doesn't take such an approach, no other country, no other force (including USA) can put an end to this. Otherwise every solution will be temporary.
It is not saying like "This is Israel's fault, so it is up to them to correct it." I am just saying that only Israel has the power to reverse the flow.
I don't want to get into who started what once more. As Perun pointed out we are running in circles. After all, this is not about the beginning, but about the patterns. The solution can only come up if somebody look at the patterns, and brave enough to break them.
I know I did not answer your question directly, LooseCannon. or might have been too idealistic as Nigel said. But I don't think that we could find a solution in a forum discussion as well. I just think this is the approach to take, if somebody with power is to solve this problem.
____no5
Free Man
eddiesson, you have a very crafty way to express your thoughts !while all the previous post(s) of eddiesson was very nice, I will stand in this sentence :
eddiesson said:
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I also enjoyed this post of Forostar, which goes deeper in the story line
yes, there is a whole story behind, which starts in 1948 and it was Israel that broke the commitment
-correct me if I'm wrong, but it was Israel's fault in the first place, and no serious reactions from the UN then.
Forostar said:
But this is what Israel did. They not only withdrew, their army drug Israeli settlers from the Gaza Strip and the West Bank and forced them to relocate to Israel proper. They turned over the former areas they held - that did not belong to them - to the PLO. In the West Bank alone they kept some military outposts. And then, after this occurred, when the elections were held, Hamas was elected. Hamas then kept shooting their rockets into Israel.
I think that the West Bank situation is more confusing - there are some areas where Israel is keeping their claims on. But Fatah, in charge of the West Bank, is willing to negotiate more than Hamas is, and seems to try and keep the trust Israel gives them. The difference is that Israel has been burned so many times by Hamas it is hard to keep trying to trust them.
eddiesson said:
I don't know about very fast, but Hamas will absolutely lose support and strength as peace lengthens. That's why they attack Israel, over and over, and fight their war with the country even when they have signed a truce. Hamas doesn't want peace, because it threatens their organization.