The Israel-Palestine conflict

[eddiesson]

The State of XXX will do whatever is necessary to defend itself from attacks.

You can replace XXX with any other nation.

That sentence is the mother of all evil. Because it brings nothing more than destruction and inhumanity. Look at Iraq. Is the world a better place now? If yes, for who?

This sentence is the refusal of self-questioning. This question prevents people to ask "what is wrong?", " what wrong we might have done?", "what we could have done better?"

This sentence de-contextualize a single event, in a biased way.

This sentence legitimize illogical, savage reactions. It fills people with hatred, distances them from logic, sensitivity, empathy and a true understanding, thus a long lasting humane solution.

This sentence is another step away from humanity, a road which we have gone a great distance lately.

I am sick of hearing it.

 

[Nigel Tufnel]

It is not an evil statement It is a matter of fact. Israel is surrounded by mortal enemies who have vowed its destruction. Iraq is not a better place and never should have been invaded.This conflict is a life and death conflict and you should quote the whole post, not the points that just support your views. I did say my view on this topic is biased. If Hamas would stand and fight the Israelis they would be wiped out. Hamas decides to hide in civillian areas. If your life was threatened on a daily basis you woulddrop your idealistic views and do what is necessary for you and your family's survival. No other nation on this Earth has been threatened than Israel. They do what is necessary and not what is politically correct. If you want to twist my posts to support your idealistic "kum bah yah" feelings than do it. This is still a very much "kill or be killed " world we live in. I think if this generation would have been in WWII, the Axis powers would have won very easily.

 

[Forostar]

You can replace XXX with any other nation.

That sentence is the mother of all evil. Because it brings nothing more than destruction and inhumanity. Look at Iraq. Is the world a better place now? If yes, for who?

This sentence is the refusal of self-questioning. This question prevents people to ask "what is wrong?", " what wrong we might have done?", "what we could have done better?"

This sentence de-contextualize a single event, in a biased way.

This sentence legitimize illogical, savage reactions. It fills people with hatred, distances them from logic, sensitivity, empathy and a true understanding, thus a long lasting humane solution.

This sentence is another step away from humanity, a road which we have gone a great distance lately.

I am sick of hearing it.

Great post, eddiesson. Not idealistic. Realistic. No changing of words. Just showing the problem of how people look to simple into this conflict, how easy people tend to choose a side. It's better know what's going on and refuse to be prejudiced. I admire that.

@NigelTufnel, your words remind me of Bush (The axis of evil etc) Old words, no good results.

 

[Nigel Tufnel]

Hey, I am not a Bush supporter, I am just pointing out how easy it is to be politically correct, when you have the luxury of not being annihilated on a daily basis. The Hamas fighters are the ones who choose to carry out  a war in an area populated by civilians. What is Israel supposed to do? Let Hamas kill their people? The whole situation is messed up, for both sides and I wish that only combatants were killed in war. But it does'nt work that way. People are looking for idealistic solutions for a situation that has realworld outcomes. They are not fighting soldiers but terrorists who don't even have the basic regards for their own people's lives. You cannot come to a peaceful resolution with people that are willing to put on a vest loaded with C-4, go to a cafe where there are no military targets and blow the device to kill as many civilians as they can. I am just surprised that this tactic has'nt caught on here in the USA. I don't agree with every tactic that Israel implements either, but I have the luxury of living in a safer environment to make that judgement. Sometimes you can resolve conflicts with diplomacy, but sometimes you have to use force. i just wish that everyone would have the omniscience and wisdom to know the difference. Forostar, what would you do if you were under an attack? Would you use force to defend yourself, or would you roll over and die?

 

[Forostar]

I agree with most things you said, and I agree with this operation. I only think that the whole picture should be drawn, to get a broader perspective. There is a reason for all these hostilities.

I hope that Israel will change their politics and restrictions towards the Palestinians. This operation has a history and there will be a future as well.

Again it sounds idealistic, but it's real enough in my eyes.

 

[eddiesson]

It is not an evil statement It is a matter of fact. Israel is surrounded by mortal enemies who have vowed its destruction. Iraq is not a better place and never should have been invaded.This conflict is a life and death conflict and you should quote the whole post, not the points that just support your views. I did say my view on this topic is biased. If Hamas would stand and fight the Israelis they would be wiped out. Hamas decides to hide in civillian areas. If your life was threatened on a daily basis you woulddrop your idealistic views and do what is necessary for you and your family's survival. No other nation on this Earth has been threatened than Israel. They do what is necessary and not what is politically correct. If you want to twist my posts to support your idealistic "kum bah yah" feelings than do it. This is still a very much "kill or be killed " world we live in. I think if this generation would have been in WWII, the Axis powers would have won very easily.

Really?

I live in Turkey, where civilians and soldiers are killed (and are still being killed) in southeast and in my city Istanbul. Over 35.000 people are killed by the PKK, kurdish organisation which is still finds international support.

Before jumping to conclusions, first know who you are talking with.

Secondly, I also blame my own government, that uses the sentence I objected to justify its wrong politics. Because when you do something illogical, which contradicts human rights, the easiest justification and mean to get support is either nationalism, or religion. I object any armed operation out of Turkish borders, as it serves nothing. Just as Israel's operation will serve to nothing else than momentarily quench some peoples' thirst for revenge. And then what? new rockets will come, in another form, because unfortunately the problem will still be there, the hatred will be even greater.

Tell me how this operation can prevent suicide bombers, unless you change those people's minds.

I repeat your point:

If your life was threatened on a daily basis you woulddrop your idealistic views and do what is necessary for you and your family's survival.

On the contrary, my thoughts are shaped just because of that situation.
I am being "idealistic", as you called, just because of this situation.
Why? because the other solutions you defend JUST - DOESN'T - WORK.

 

[____no5]

Israel is over-reacting. Allways. And allways has a scandalous support from US which makes people overreact
No, it's not a fascist country but what happens decades now to Palestinians is evil.

Hamas is stupid. But it was somehow natural that it was elected after so many years of hypocricy.
From Fatah, from the International Community, from the Arab Community.

All I know, is International Community would had reacted long time ago if it was any other state in the place of Isreal
They don't do it, and the majority of the people feel that hypocricy

In that story I blame both Hamas and Israel, but I blame Israel much more

 

[Perun]

Israel is over-reacting. Allways. And allways has a scandalous support from US which makes people overreact

Would you call a country defending itself in the face of a (perceived or real) threat of annihilation "overreacting"?

Oh wait, you just did.

Hamas is stupid. But it was somehow natural that it was elected after so many years of hypocricy.
From Fatah, from the International Community, from the Arab Community.

What hypocrisy are you talking about?

All I know, is International Community would had reacted long time ago if it was any other state in the place of Isreal

And how do you know?

 

[Nigel Tufnel]

Has your country been openly threatened by a Head of State? I am not wishing the Palestinian people or any others harm. My main point is that Hamas fighters use cowardly tactics, by not only targeting civilians but hiding amongst their own. I call you view idealistic because I don't believe it is possible to reason with a person willing to sacrifice themselves in order to destroy not only you, but your entire way of life. I agree with your point that you must change their minds, but this conflict, I believe is too much a fundamental religious problem. On both sides. It is not easy to kill another human being or inflict suffering on a people, either through warfare or sanctions. But sometimes it is the only solution, especially if your adversary is willing to use unconventional means. An answer with force sometimes is the only solution. I am not jumping to conclusions. I know nothing of you, and you know nothing of me. I am not trying to flame you here, but I do believe that a nation has a right to defend itself by any and all means necessary. A guerrilla war is one of psychology and morale. That is what is happening here. The rockets being fired upon Israel are of absolutely no military value, but they are a psychological tool. The Israelis are killing far more Palestinians than Palestinians are killing Israelis. But I believe this is the response that Hamas wants, for the Israeli Army to look like a bully attacking civilians. But giving the history of the Jewish People I really can't fault them for their response.  

 

[____no5]

Would you call a country defending itself in the face of a (perceived or real) threat of annihilation "overreacting"?

Oh wait, you just did.

annihilation ?? from what ?? from Hamas' fireworks ?? yeah right

What hypocrisy are you talking about?

the hypocricy of nice big words : freedom, human rights, democracy, that only apply when there is interest

And how do you know?

I feel it. Like most of the people feel it. Israel got nuclear weapons and nobody said a word forgot about it ??

 

[LooseCannon]

annihilation ?? from what ?? from Hamas' fireworks ?? yeah right

Dude, Hamas, as an organization, is dedicated to the eradication of Israel.  It arose because the PLO wasn't extreme enough for it.  Their stated goal, and I quote, is "the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf (trust) consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day" and that "there is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad".  The weapons you have so scornfully called "fireworks" include the Qassam rocket, an easily built projectile that has the capacity to kill and only hasn't killed more because the Hamas fighters are terribly poor at aiming the damn things.  They are murdering Israelis.  Period.

Israel has a very tough choice: they cannot really give Hamas free reign, because Hamas wants nothing to do with Israel's existence.  How can you lift restrictions on someone that wants to kill you.  It's not possible.  Hamas hasn't shown any interest in negotiation or in mediation.

eddiesson, I agree that the operation in Gaza won't stop Hamas.  Like I said earlier, it's what Hamas wants - they want more people to hate Israel so they will be willing to kill themselves to bring Israel to its knees.  But you can't just let people die, either.  There's no good choice for them here.  Even if an international force of peacekeepers was to descend on Gaza, I doubt the situation would alter much at all - Hamas would keep firing rockets, and they would just blame the greater world for those killed in the ensuing conflicts.  Hamas isn't interested in peace, and it's nearly impossible to find a way to sit with those people.

 

[Forostar]

Most governments (like mine) forbid politicians to talk with Hamas.
So it's more like this: "We" do not want to sit down with those people.

 

[____no5]

Dude, Hamas, as an organization, is dedicated to the eradication of Israel.  It arose because the PLO wasn't extreme enough for it.  Their stated goal, and I quote, is "the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf (trust) consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day" and that "there is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad".  The weapons you have so scornfully called "fireworks" include the Qassam rocket, an easily built projectile that has the capacity to kill and only hasn't killed more because the Hamas fighters are terribly poor at aiming the damn things.  They are murdering Israelis.  Period.

Israel has a very tough choice: they cannot really give Hamas free reign, because Hamas wants nothing to do with Israel's existence.  How can you lift restrictions on someone that wants to kill you.  It's not possible.  Hamas hasn't shown any interest in negotiation or in mediation.

Hamas is trapped to his own words. It can not annihilate Israel, and it was silly from its part to claim it
Hamas is consisted of foolish people, plus they are very bad politicians : no-one says in the year 2008
that he wants to annihilate Israel -unless he's a fool

as I see things Hamas declared Israel's annihilation to coil voters in the past
I don't believe that Palestinians want to destroy Israel -the only thing they want is their freedom
and some help to build their country -and even if they want they just can't

so in the whole story I see more Israel's responsibility than Hamas'es
if Israel wants peace, let it return to Palestinians some land, let them be and that's all
Israel's influence in the western world is more that huge, if they really wanted it they would had it
but they didn't, just they played hide-and-seek for a lot of years and still do
and the proof is that nothing happened while Arafat was still alive
Arafat allways accepted the right of Israel to exist

 

[Perun]

and the proof is that nothing happened while Arafat was still alive
Arafat allways accepted the right of Israel to exist

NOTHING HAPPENED???? Do the words "Second Intifadah" mean anything to you? "First Intifadah"? "Yom Kippur War"?

I'm not saying they are Arafat's responsibility, but they perfectly happened while he was still alive.

 

[Onhell]

as I see things Hamas declared Israel's annihilation to coil voters in the past
I don't believe that Palestinians want to destroy Israel

Hamas, all of the Middle East and even Orthodox Jews who abhor the Zionist movement don't want Israel to exist....

 

[____no5]

NOTHING HAPPENED???? Do the words "Second Intifadah" mean anything to you? "First Intifadah"? "Yom Kippur War"?

I'm not saying they are Arafat's responsibility, but they perfectly happened while he was still alive.

no I meant the Palestinian State -it was a nice opportunity then

 

[LooseCannon]

as I see things Hamas declared Israel's annihilation to coil voters in the past
I don't believe that Palestinians want to destroy Israel -the only thing they want is their freedom
and some help to build their country -and even if they want they just can't

You can't just say that and have it be true!  Hamas doesn't want just freedom, and there's no evidence to suggest that.  If that's what they wanted, they would find a better way to go about it!  Reference Fatah, whom they waged war against because Fatah was becoming too soft on the Israeli question.  That's why the West Bank is controlled by Fatah and the Gaza Strip is controlled by Hamas.  It would be foolish to suggest that Palestinians and Israelis can't get along.  It is going to be a long process.  But Hamas isn't truly interested in getting along with Israel unless it is completely on Hamas's terms, and those terms are judged as impossible by both Israel and the international community.

Foro's right - many countries have limitations on dealing with Hamas, but I hope that eventually changes.  Someone will need to reach out to these people eventually.  We must never negotiate out of fear but we must not fear to negotiate.

 

[____no5]

of course he's right, Hamas are just some branch of stupid amateurs -plus they have declared the annihilation of Israel
just imagine how Palestinian people is desesperate to elect these idiots

but again these people they don't deserve this kind of massive punishment
see it like this ; how would you feel if Basques threw some rouckets to Spanish buildings
and right after that Spanish army started to bombard Bilbao ??

 

[Perun]

of course he's right, Hamas are just some branch of stupid amateurs

No, they aren't. They know what they are doing. And that's the bad part about it.

 

[____no5]

in that case they would be traitors of their people -which seems diffucult