The Israel-Palestine Conflict

____no5 said:
in that case they would be traitors of their people -which seems diffucult

How are they traitors?  Hamas doesn't care if Palestinians die.  That doesn't make them traitors, it just makes them cold.  They want Palestinians to be killed by Israel because they believe that if that more Palestinians die, more will be willing to die.  Hamas is a religiously-fueled extremist group for whom death is no obstacle.
 
____no5 said:
yeah you're right cold they are -in any case it (Hamas) makes no sence   

You need to look at it from their point of view, though, and you're not doing that.
 
Onhell said:
Hamas, all of the Middle East and even Orthodox Jews who abhor the Zionist movement don't want Israel to exist....

"All of the middle east part is" over-generalization. You can say "Islamist extremists", that would be ok. Unlike the general view, not all of the Middle East is extremist, let alone all muslims.
 
LooseCannon said:
You need to look at it from their point of view, though, and you're not doing that.

I'm trying : as you see I put the blame on Israel mostly

but after that I'm pragmatist : the aim should be the forming of a Palestinian state
by with the way that things are going I don't see that possible
 
eddiesson said:
"All of the middle east part is" over-generalization. You can say "Islamist extremists", that would be ok. Unlike the general view, not all of the Middle East is extremist, let alone all muslims.

The governments at any rate...
 
Not even that. Turkey, Egypt, Jordan and Qatar (and I think also the United Arab Emirates) formally recognise the State of Israel and entertain diplomatic relations with it.

And yes, that counts because it was a long road to achieve even that.
 
Perun said:
Not even that. Turkey, Egypt, Jordan and Qatar (and I think also the United Arab Emirates) formally recognise the State of Israel and entertain diplomatic relations with it.

And yes, that counts because it was a long road to achieve even that.

Perfectly true. Turkey has very strong diplomatic and military relations with Israel, although the current prime-minister is being clumsy and stupid with them at the moment.
Egypt is criticized by the Arab world because it is agreeing with Israel.
As far as I know, Jordan is in the same situation as Egypt.
Even Syria was conducting indirect negotiations with Israel about Golan Heights, until current events started.
LooseCannon said:
eddiesson, I agree that the operation in Gaza won't stop Hamas.  Like I said earlier, it's what Hamas wants - they want more people to hate Israel so they will be willing to kill themselves to bring Israel to its knees.  But you can't just let people die, either.  There's no good choice for them here.  Even if an international force of peacekeepers was to descend on Gaza, I doubt the situation would alter much at all - Hamas would keep firing rockets, and they would just blame the greater world for those killed in the ensuing conflicts.  Hamas isn't interested in peace, and it's nearly impossible to find a way to sit with those people.

The gist of what I say is that, Israel should offer Palestinians a peaceful place to live, and not prevent their prosperity with economic sanctions, . If Israel shows its will to live side by side with these people by recognizing their rights and treats them as equal people, it would be a huge step towards solution and peace, far more effective than what they are doing right now.

They had this opportunity during ceasefires. They will once again have it once US decides that it is time for another ceasefire, god knows when.

If they do that, Hamas would be marginalized and won't find support. Hamas' support was in decline before this operation. Hamas is extremely bad at offering a comfortable life to palestinians. It fired those rockets in desperation, to increase its support by feeding the hatred. No hatred against Israel = No Hamas. They perfectly know that.
 
We are forgetting about Syria and Iran, who along with Hamas, want to wipe Israel off of the face of the Earth. I think we can also put Lybia into this catergory as well. Hamas is getting exactly what it wants. It fires rockets into Israeli civilian areas. There are causulties. Israel responds with overwhelming force(in which is key in any military strategy). You get media attention to the Israeli Army which looks like overkill with tanks, artillery and heavy combat troops versus lightly armed (mostly with AK-47s, RPGs and Molotov Cocktails) guerillas and it looks like the Israelis are slaughtering Palestinians. Hamas wants to rally Mujahadeen fighters from all over the world to rally to thier cause, much like in the Soviet Invasion of Afghanastan. They use this negative media attention of Israel to stoke the fuel of hatred in other Muslims in order for them to take up arms against Israel. Thus bringing their stated goal of the destruction of Israel to fruition.
 
Check the red part, someone will talk with Hamas.
-------

Envoys race to halt Gaza carnage

Intense diplomatic efforts are under way to try to secure a ceasefire in Gaza as the Israeli assault against Hamas militants enters its 10th day.

Separate missions to the Middle East are being led by the French president, and a high-level team from the EU.

Israeli troops pushed deeper into Gaza overnight, with reports of about 40 Israeli tanks moving towards the southern town of Khan Younis.

Palestinians say two adults and five children were killed overnight.

They say more than 500 people have been killed so far.

Hamas officials say that 10 of its fighters have so far been killed in the ground offensive while the Israeli military reports one of its soldiers dead and 34 wounded.

Israel said it would allow more aid into Gaza later, with 80 trucks loaded with food and medicines.

The Palestinians said there had been clashes in the east, near the Israeli border. Earlier, Israeli forces took up positions in the north on either side of Gaza City.

The Israeli military said it had carried out 30 air strikes overnight. Targets included a mosque and the homes of Hamas leaders.

Shuttle diplomacy

French President Nicolas Sarkozy will be shuttling across the Middle East, taking in the Egyptian capital Cairo as well as Jerusalem, the Palestinian West Bank town of Ramallah and the Syrian capital Damascus.

In a separate development, a Hamas official said a delegation of the Islamist group would head for talks in Egypt.
Mr Sarkozy's Foreign Minister, Bernard Kouchner, is part of a separate EU delegation which has already been in Cairo.


It is headed by the Czech Foreign Minister, Karel Schwartzenberg, whose country has just taken over the rotating EU presidency from France, and includes EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana.

After talks with Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Abul Gheit, Mr Schwartzenberg appealed for an end to both Israel's shelling of Gaza and Palestinian militant rocket attacks on Israel.

Mr Gheit said a UN Security Council resolution was urgently needed.

EU External Relations Commissioner Benita Ferrero-Waldner said it was vital to get food and medical supplies into Gaza to ensure hospitals were able to function.

A Russian presidential envoy, Alexander Saltanov, met Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni on Sunday but failed to persuade her to accept Moscow as a mediator with Hamas.

The BBC's Jonathan Marcus says all this diplomatic activity is unlikely to bring rapid results.

Israel is going to be unwilling to halt operations before achieving its military goals - whatever these goals may be, he notes.

And Hamas is just as unlikely to capitulate as its continuing rocket fire demonstrates, our correspondent adds.

Rising death toll

Flashes of explosions could be seen overnight from the northern border of Gaza and the regular sounds of gun and artillery fire could be heard.

Fighting appeared to move away from the northern end of the territory towards more populous areas in the west, correspondents say.

The Palestinian health ministry says 509 Palestinians, mostly civilians, have been killed since the Israelis began their assault on Gaza more than a week ago. Of these, it says, 70 have died since the ground offensive began on Saturday.

Some 2,500 people have reportedly also been wounded.

The figures could not be independently verified. Israel is refusing to let international journalists into Gaza despite a ruling by its a supreme court to admit a limited number of reporters.
 
"Oi, Hamas, are you gonna quit firing missiles on Israel?"
"On where?"
"You know, the country you've been shooting at."
"Oh, Palestine."

...
 
eddiesson said:
The gist of what I say is that, Israel should offer Palestinians a peaceful place to live, and not prevent their prosperity with economic sanctions, . If Israel shows its will to live side by side with these people by recognizing their rights and treats them as equal people, it would be a huge step towards solution and peace, far more effective than what they are doing right now.

They had this opportunity during ceasefires. They will once again have it once US decides that it is time for another ceasefire, god knows when.

If they do that, Hamas would be marginalized and won't find support. Hamas' support was in decline before this operation. Hamas is extremely bad at offering a comfortable life to palestinians. It fired those rockets in desperation, to increase its support by feeding the hatred. No hatred against Israel = No Hamas. They perfectly know that.

very nice one. hope to seeing you more often on board, eddiesson !  :ok:
 
I'm not saying Israel is perfect, but I doubt the Hamas official will have anything constructive to say.  Or they'll just do what they do every time they negotiate - lie.  Remember the 10 year truce they signed in 2006?  Or the truce they signed in July 2008?  I'm certainly hoping that Mr. Sarkozy can get some things done but Hamas isn't trustworthy, which makes sense - they teach that infidels don't deserve the truth.
 
LooseCannon said:
I'm certainly hoping that Mr. Sarkozy can get some things done

:(
it's very dissapointing in which point Sarkozy is over-estimated abroad


*his time gonna come : 'you can fool some people sometimes but you can't fool all the people all the time'
 
Do you mean under-estimated?  Because I have no doubt he is a skilled negotiator.  I'm just saying Hamas only does truces when it favours Hamas to do truces, and they have no problem breaking their word when they think it to their advantage.
 
Are you sure?  Because the second part of that message suggested Sarkozy will do quite well in a surprising fashion, suggesting we don't expect him to, thus under-estimate.
 
you impress me LC !

yes, it's true; Sarkozy is someone that can make the surprise, I admit it

to be completely fair I have to admit also that I hate him -but still, I'm trying to judge out of sentiments
so, what I say is that it would be not completely impossible he to become a real leader -a really great man

for the moment, he is not : he is extemely skilled in 'communication', his politic is based on that
he achieved to fool French once -and he is lucky not to have a serious left party to fight him
...
now French are dissapointed of him, but his image is still strong outside France which is normal
-it will take more time for the rest of the world to discover who he really is

he's an image LC, a balloon full of air -that's what I think he is
 
I have less faith in this negotiation because of Hamas than Sarkozy, no5.  I think Hamas will lie to his face.
 
again you're right, just the comparaison between Hamas and Sarkozy made me smile

in my point of view, both of them will tell lies, but I just can't put them in the same basket *smile*
Hamas, I don't consider them politicians at all
Perun would not agree, but to me are only amateurs 
 
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