The Israel-Palestine Conflict

Forostar said:
And to disbelieve everything until the very end of this: I wonder Per, how do you do this?
How can you supress the slightest form of thought? You think without judging? I think that would be very healthy, but I am afraid I need a lot of training before I could do that.
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It's pretty confusing if you edit your posts all the time. In the post above, I replied to something completely different from what is quoted here.

However, this is also worth replying to. Of course I'm not an emotionless monster. I'm pissed off by any report of any war party killing anybody anywhere. No matter if it's Israel, Palestine, America, Iraq, Russia, Georgia or whoever.
I'm trying to view things neutrally so I can judge in the first place. Many people have tried to manipulate me in showing me pictures of dead children from somewhere, and in the end I saw pictures of dead children from the other side too. In fact, I've seen so many pictures of dead children that I've lost my sensitivity to that. It's bad, but I can't burst out in tears over every picture of a dead child I see. I'm emotionally unattached to it. That allows me to check both -or all- sides of the story if I've got access to the sources.
 
Perun said:
It's pretty confusing if you edit your posts all the time. In the post above, I replied to something completely different from what is quoted here.

However, this is also worth replying to. Of course I'm not an emotionless monster. I'm pissed off by any report of any war party killing anybody anywhere. No matter if it's Israel, Palestine, America, Iraq, Russia, Georgia or whoever.
I'm trying to view things neutrally so I can judge in the first place. Many people have tried to manipulate me in showing me pictures of dead children from somewhere, and in the end I saw pictures of dead children from the other side too. In fact, I've seen so many pictures of dead children that I've lost my sensitivity to that. It's bad, but I can't burst out in tears over every picture of a dead child I see. I'm emotionally unattached to it. That allows me to check both -or all- sides of the story if I've got access to the sources.
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I am sorry that I edited it, I wanted to change it because I felt the former post wasn't correct (enough). I never expected that you quoted me so early already. Like me you are an invisible freak. ;)

But now I have a double answer which is - in fact - a bonus. Sorry for the confusion!


My answer to you again:

Do you and LC not have this feeling of disproportionality? I don't ask you to burst into tears, I don't force you guys to weigh another live for the other, I don't ask you guys to subtract one number from the other. I don't ask you guys to forget the Israelian victims. I know that every death on whatever side is terrible, but don't you feel there's still some math left? The neutral spectator should have no difficulties to see the total picture.

I think we now have a factor 100 in difference or something. The amount of victims. Why isn't that important in the discussion? It shows the exagerated military power that Israel is using. What I try to express is that I miss some condemning here. This is David vs Goliath, not Goliath vs Goliath or David vs David. I'll be fair with you: My government does the same, and I am not happy about it. They don't go far enough in my opinion.
 
I'm very sceptical of war reporting in general nowadays.  The Georgian Crisis showed to me just how unreliable it can be; Helsingin Sanomat, my country's BIGGEST newspaper, got things completely fucked up about the whole crisis in the beginning.  They had some nice details and pictures of Georgians suffering etc, but they couldn't see the forest for the trees.  I wouldn't trust the UN, credible as it is, to accurately convey details from the chaos of the fighting.  Most likely the UN personnel that claimed there were no fighters in the school were teachers or humanitarian workers in the school, and thus quite ordinary civilians trying to survive the fighting just as everyone else.  Even if they work for the UN, they are only people, and people can't always give rational, factual accounts in this kind of situation.

I also heard, by the way, why there have been so few civilian casualties on Israel's side.  My friend was in Israel during the crisis and he told me there are many bomb shelters in the proximity of Gaza, and many public buildings are also reinforced to withstand rockets better.  I thought this was quite interesting, especially as I haven't heard about it anywhere else.
 
LooseCannon said:
no5, there are a lot of ultra-fanatics out there in Hamas
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There are ultra-fanatics or potential/dormant ultra-fanatics everywhere in the world. In all religions, all nations, all countries, all cultures.

It is matter of triggering them, by giving a pretext for them to mobilize.
 
@Invader: I am not sure if you realize what we're talking about but it was a UN school. Please read:

UPDATE 1-UN official says no militants inside Gaza school

(Adds details from Israeli army statement and UNWRA spokesman)

UNITED NATIONS, Jan 7 (Reuters) - A senior U.N. official denied on Wednesday that any Hamas militants were inside a U.N.-run school in Gaza where Israeli shelling killed more than 40 people on Tuesday.

The Israeli army accused Hamas of using civilians as "human shields" and said its troops had returned fire after gunmen mortared their positions from within al-Fakhora school in Jabalya refugee camp.

Citing intelligence reports, it named two men it said were Islamist gunmen killed in the attack.

John Ging, director of operations in Gaza for UNRWA, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, told reporters at U.N. headquarters by videolink that he had visited the Jabalya school during a three-hour lull in fighting on Wednesday.

"I was reassured by the management of the school, my own staff, senior, experienced, long-serving staff, that there were no militants in the school," Ging said.

"I am very confident now that there was no militant activity inside the school nor militants in the school," Ging said, reiterating a call for an independent investigation.

"If anybody has evidence to the contrary, then let's bring it forward," Ging said.

A spokesman for UNWRA separately told Reuters that the Israeli army, in private meetings with diplomats, had admitted that the mortar fire came from outside the school compound and not from within it.

"This is an extremely important distinction because we have been accused of very serious allegations that our premises were being used to fire rockets," spokesman Chris Gunness said.

The Israeli army said on Wednesday it stood by its statement of the day before in which said mortars had been fired "from within" the school, but then issued another statement dropping the word "within" to say "mortar fire from" the school.

Speaking at the same news conference as Ging, John Holmes, the top U.N. humanitarian official, said the latest casualty figures from the school were 43 dead and 100 injured.

The casualties included people who had taken refuge inside the school and residents of nearby buildings.
 
I just mean that the UN is kind of like our congress. I know that they prevent and intervene in alot of conflicts and provide massive amounts of humanitarian aid. My dig was at the Permanent Security Council members, the US included.
 
UN reform is something that will eventually happen, and I wouldn't worry about it too much.  The UN is effective as the world is ready for it to be - that's part of its beauty.
 
UN suspends Gaza aid operations

The UN has said it is suspending aid operations in Gaza because its staff have been hit by Israeli attacks.

The suspension would continue "until the Israeli authorities can guarantee our safety and security", the UN said.

The international Red Cross has also accused Israel of failing to fulfil its duty to help wounded civilians in Gaza.

Meanwhile, the US, UK and France have dropped opposition to a UN resolution urging an immediate ceasefire, and Arab nations are studying a draft.

The US, UK and France had wanted a weaker statement, the BBC's Laura Trevelyan in New York says.

But Arab foreign ministers said anything less than a binding resolution calling for an immediate ceasefire would be an inadequate response to the crisis, our correspondent says.

If the Arab nations' response to the draft resolution is positive, a vote could happen later.

The draft calls for an immediate ceasefire, action to stop the smuggling of arms by Hamas across the Egypt-Gaza border and the opening of border crossings into Gaza so aid can be delivered.

'Great regret'

The UN's suspension of aid efforts came shortly after it said one person had been killed and two hurt when a fork-lift truck on a UN aid mission came under Israeli tank fire at Gaza's Erez crossing.


The UN's relief agency Unwra said it was "with great regret" that it had been forced to make a difficult decision.

"We have suspended our operations in Gaza until the Israeli authorities can guarantee our safety and security," said Unwra spokesman Chris Gunness.

"Our installations have been hit, our workers have been killed in spite of the fact that the Israeli authorities have the co-ordinates of our facilities and that all our movements are co-ordinated with the Israeli army."

The UN said the movements of the truck hit at the Erez crossing had been co-ordinated with Israel.

The Israeli army has not commented on that claim but has said it is looking into the matter.

The International Committee of the Red Cross said its staff had found four weak and scared children beside their mothers' bodies in houses hit by shelling in Zeitoun.

The Israeli military has not yet responded to the accusation, but said it worked closely with aid groups so that civilians could get assistance.

Meanwhile, Amnesty International accused both Israel and Hamas of using civilians as human shields.

Air strikes

The aid agencies' concerns come amid fears the conflict with Gaza militants may spread, with at least three rockets fired from Lebanon into northern Israel, prompting Israel to reply with artillery.


The incident followed the heaviest bombardment so far of Gaza in nearly two weeks of conflict, with 60 air strikes which Israel says targeted Hamas facilities.
Palestinian medical officials said at least 10 Gaza residents had been killed on Thursday.

More than 700 Palestinian and 11 Israeli lives are said to have been lost since the offensive began 13 days ago.

For a second day, Israel suspended its operation for three hours to allow humanitarian aid into Gaza.

Efforts have continued to broker a full ceasefire - a senior Israeli official is in Cairo to hear details of a plan put forward by Egypt and France.

A Hamas delegation is expected in the Egyptian capital at some stage for parallel "technical" talks, Egyptian diplomats said.


At least three Katyusha rockets were fired from southern Lebanon into the northern Israeli area of Nahariya early on Thursday.
One hit a nursing home, injuring at least two people.

Israel immediately responded with five artillery shells into Lebanon, calling it a "pinpoint response at the source of fire".

The rocket fire was condemned by Lebanon's prime minister.

The rocket attacks from Lebanon have raised concerns about a wider war in the region, says the BBC's Middle East Editor Jeremy Bowen.

Casualty claims in Gaza have been difficult to verify independently.

While the BBC's Palestinian producers have been reporting from Gaza, Israel allowed Western TV crews to enter only on Wednesday, embedded with its army.


Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/m ... 818577.stm
 
I have to say that I'm really starting to agree with you Foro.  I can't see any justification or excuse Israel could come up with for shooting a UN truck.
 
Israel 'shelled civilian shelter'

Israeli forces shelled a house in the Gaza Strip which they had moved around 110 Palestinians into 24 hours earlier, the UN quotes witnesses as saying.

The UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) called it "one of the gravest incidents" since the beginning of the offensive.

The shelling at Zeitoun, a south-east suburb of Gaza City, on 5 January killed some 30 people, the report said.

Israel said the allegations were being investigated.

"According to several testimonies, on 4 January Israeli foot soldiers evacuated approximately 110 Palestinians into a single-residence house in Zeitoun (half of whom were children) warning them to stay indoors," the OCHA report said.

"Twenty-four hours later, Israeli forces shelled the home repeatedly, killing approximately 30."

The UN said those who survived and were able walked 2km to the main north-south road to be transported to hospital in civilian vehicles.

"Three children, the youngest of whom was five months old, died upon arrival at the hospital," the report said.

An estimated 770 Palestinians and 14 Israelies have died in nearly two weeks of Israel's air and ground offensive against the Palestinian militant group Hamas.

The UN Security Council has called for an immediate ceasefire and the withdrawal of Israeli troops from Gaza.
 
what a shame  :(

the most terrible sanction that International Community is able to do for Israel right now
is an invitation from the Permanent Security Council to ceasing fire

some time the International Community will have to treat Israel equally
this ultra-protection (more than 20 US vetos during the last 40 years in Security Council) towards Israel
only grows the hatred -nothing more
 
very interesting in deed!

I believe this retired marine; every official army needs to have a code of ethics, and I believe that US apply this to their forces

but Israeli, do not; and US goverments have a huge responsibility on this, as I told before the cover that US gives to Israel is scandalous !! that's one main reason that many people are pissed off with Americans
sometimes they think that USA=Israel, and that's why the soldier is pissed off

in any case very interesting letter
 
Thanks LC! Thought provoking stuff!

I appreciate that contribution very much. Some "highlights":

... I am dismayed by the rhetoric from US politicians and pundits to the effect that “if the US were under rocket attack from Mexico or Canada, we would respond like the Israelis”. This a gross insult to US servicemen; I can assure you that we would NOT respond like the Israelis. ...

... If the Israelis had said, “sorry, it was an accident”, that could indicate a targeting problem, confusion, or inferior training. But to openly admit that they responded reflexively to the Hamas fire without consideration for the inevitable civilian casualties is beyond the pale. The Israelis blame Hamas for firing from the school (although UN personnel on the ground dispute this), but choosing to fire directly at civilians is far worse; it is tantamount to murder. ...

... The Israeli approach in Gaza strikes me as uncontrolled and vengeful. ...

He has the guts to say this, in a country where many people defend Israel.
He has the arguments to make his point and I agree very much with his norms, his view on warfare.
 
Forostar said:
He has the guts to say this, in a country where many people defend Israel.
He has the arguments to make his point and I agree very much with his norms, his view on warfare.
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he had the guts, but mostly the knowledge as he speaks from inside
yeah, maybe there are too many that defend Israel but they have a good reason : wrong information
as everything in US seems to turn around Israel
(not a surprise considering the huge jewish capitals that sponsorize both political parties)

and regarding the code of ethics I was talking before : this is one of the main differences between a terrorist organization
and an organized army corps

and I have the feeling that US forces had been "gentelmen" (as the war allows such a thing)
comparing to other conquerants -even too kind they could have been

and yes, war is a terrible thing, but still there is some place for "fairplay"
this one was the best :

Forostar said:
I am dismayed by the rhetoric from US politicians and pundits to the effect that “if the US were under rocket attack from Mexico or Canada, we would respond like the Israelis”. This a gross insult to US servicemen; I can assure you that we would NOT respond like the Israelis.
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I'm curious to see what Deano would say about this...
 
Forostar, I am still not convinced that Israel is acting out of turn, but I do agree that they are definitely unlikely to admit to any mistakes nor malice.

However, I still am also willing to believe that Hamas is capable of using children as human shields - in this case, they just didn't.
 
U.N. rights council hits Israel over Gaza
By Robert Evans

GENEVA (Reuters) - The United Nations Human Rights Council, dominated by Muslim states and their allies, condemned Israel on Monday for "grave violations" of human rights of the people of Gaza.

A resolution drafted by Arab, Asian and African countries also called for the urgent despatch of an international mission to investigate Israeli behaviour in the enclave, and called on Israel to cooperate with it.

But the non-binding resolution, passed by 33 votes with 13 abstentions and one against, was dismissed by Israel as one-sided and reflecting the "fairytale world" of the 47-member Council, for which the Jewish state is a prime target.

The text of the document said the Council "strongly condemns the ongoing Israeli military operations... which have resulted in massive violations of human rights of the Palestinian people and systematic destruction of the Palestinian infrastructure."

The resolution, whose wording diplomats said had been softened at the request of Palestinian envoys in an effort to get a consensus in the Council, was opposed outright by Canada while European countries, Japan and South Korea abstained.

The United States is not a member of the Council and took no part in the discussions.

Canada complained that the text, which called for an immediate withdrawal of Israeli forces, failed to recognise that Israel had acted to stop rocket attacks on its territory from the Hamas-controlled Gaza.

Germany, speaking for European Union members on the Council, said they would abstain for the same reason.

However, the resolution also called for an end to "launching of the crude rockets against Israeli civilians that resulted in the loss of 4 civilian lives" but noted that Israeli attacks had brought some 900 Palestinian deaths and injured around 4,000.

In the earlier debate on the resolution, Pakistan, speaking for the 57-member Organisation of the Islamic Conference (OIC), denounced what it called Israel's "unrestrained use of force, killing of innocent civilians" and violation of U.N. havens.

The resolution was backed by Russia, China and Latin American states on the Council including Argentina and Brazil.
 
Forostar said:
I thought about NigelTufnel to be honest.
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Please elaborate. In what way?
____no5 said:
he had the guts, but mostly the knowledge as he speaks from inside
yeah, maybe there are too many that defend Israel but they have a good reason : wrong information
as everything in US seems to turn around Israel
(not a surprise considering the huge jewish capitals that sponsorize both political parties)
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That sounds a little antisemitic.
 
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