Russia invades Ukraine

[LooseCannon]

Nobody is rooting for Hamas here, and nobody is rooting for Hezbollah, either.

The point is that to save a few tens of their own civilians - remember, the entire northern area of Israel where Hezbollah's rockets can reach is evacuated - Israel is exterminating hundreds of Lebanese, some of which are certainly Hezbollah and some of which certainly are not.

Similar how, because of the death of 1200 Israelis, the Israelis have since exterminated at least 40,000 Gazans. The disproportionality of it is what I find objectionable.

 

[Azas]

Context matters. When you chant Free Palestine, you legitimize hamas, because they are Gaza's authority. And you ignore 1139 victims of latest terror act committed on October 7th. It means you - those who chant it - are ok with that terror attack. It's horrible when people are so dumb.

edit: I have read that Qatar donates high amounts of money to U.S. universities. I don't know if it's true, but it would definitely clear some aspects of students pro Palestine activity.

edit2: also, correct me if i am wrong, but those civilian deaths numbers were provided by hamas... I would be not sure that they gave true numbers. (I don't want to sound arrogant, i simply don't know, but hamas is not very reliable organization)

 

[Vaenyr]

View attachment 39145


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Israel is well on their way, daily "pumping those numbers up".

Israel is no Saints but Hezbollah is a threat to Israel. It is ok by you when Israel is attacked every other day with rocket barrages?
And again, like Hamas, Hezbollah hides behind the civilians.
To condemn Israel from Ivory Towers* is cynic at best, imo.

This "hides behind civilians" talking point is played out and easily disproven, with the West Bank being the perfect counter example, where neither Hamas nor Hezbollah exists, yet the innocent Palestinians are harassed daily. You've been told this fact multiple times, but Israel has killed far more innocent people than the literal terrorists of Hamas. Going purely by numbers Israel is the bigger evil. The government of Israel and the IDF are literally violating human rights, despite being "the most moral army in the world". I thought they were supposed to be better than literal terrorists?

They have a right to defend themselves and to live a life of dignity and respect. They do not have a right to indiscriminately slaughter a population.

*Ivory Towers is my term for Western post modern society where queers, for example, root for hamas, who would decapitate those fools in a blink of an eye.
Nothing against queers per se from my side, but when people act like idiots I will say so and will not mince my words.

Not this bullshit again. I've already explained to you before what the deal with Queers For Palestine is and that their stance is perfectly reasonable. They believe that people, even if they are bigoted, don't deserve genocide. They have principles and stand up for human rights. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge this simple fact says a lot about your own moral compass. I despise Trump supporters, but I don't wish genocide on them. Am I a fool acting like an idiot for not wanting innocents to die too? Or is your worldview overly simplistic and you are so driven by emotion that you ignore any and all reason and logic if they go against your beliefs?

Context matters. When you chant Free Palestine, you legitimize hamas, because they are Gaza's authority. And you ignore 1139 victims of latest terror act committed on October 7th. It means you - those who chant it - are ok with that terror attack. It's horrible when people are so dumb.

No, that's reductive bullshit. "Free Palestine" means an end to an ethnic cleansing campaign, as recognized by multiple human rights groups, including Israeli groups. The terror attack was horrible and people recognize that. This doesn't mean that Israel gets to do the same times an order of magnitude more in retaliation. That's bloodlust, pure and simple.

edit2: also, correct me if i am wrong, but those civilian deaths numbers were provided by hamas... I would be not sure that they gave true numbers. (I don't want to sound arrogant, i simply don't know, but hamas is not very reliable organization)

Yes, you are wrong. There are various numbers provided and the lower estimate at this point is 40k.

 

[JudasMyGuide]

Nobody is rooting for Hamas here, and nobody is rooting for Hezbollah, either.

The point is that to save a few tens of their own civilians - remember, the entire northern area of Israel where Hezbollah's rockets can reach is evacuated - Israel is exterminating hundreds of Lebanese, some of which are certainly Hezbollah and some of which certainly are not.

Similar how, because of the death of 1200 Israelis, the Israelis have since exterminated at least 40,000 Gazans. The disproportionality of it is what I find objectionable.

I kinda agree with your complaint about the disproportionality. And despite me having been slightly more on the Israeli side from the onset, I'm nowadays at the point where I can't muster the inner conviction to even care anymore, since there is a lot of black vs. black in this conflict.

Still, although I realise the "Argumentum ad Hitlerum" is considered a faux-pas nowadays, I didn't make it on the last page solely for the purpose of the meme.

The thing is - your neighbour is, say, Nazi Germany (including the ideological hatred of the Jews in general). And you know there are certainly civilians who have a problem with that, but then again, there are many who are quite fine with the state of affairs. I do remember Palestinians and various affiliates publicly celebrating after the October attack last years all over the world. You know, dead Jewish pig is a dead Jewish pig, from the river to the sea, be harder on the kikes (I am currently using my K-word privileges since I suspect my family of being at least partially Jewish, because of our history, name etc. - and we even look the stereotype and I've had trouble with that before myself, so there). There were (and still are) swastikas and broken windows in the residences of Jewish people in the west. Have been even before the counterattack.

Which turns it into a question ... how many reciprocal casualties is enough? Because this argument of yours seems to be skirting the idea that they should have waited, you know, until there's more casualties on their side, more terrorist attacks on their civilians, so that the casualties would be more evened out (which, considering how the cunts in Hamas operate, there would always be. Hiding behind children and civilians is always going to result in civilian casualties).
And well.. how long are you supposed to let your country, your nation, be bled again, civilians, children, etc. before you attack and you'll decapitate the Hydra whatever the cost? Before you'll take down the Hitler and the Goebbels, even though possibly half a million German civilians shall perish in the aftermath?

Now, I don't really condone that - as a proper Catholic boy I must protest even the usage of the atomic bomb, since it is indiscriminating and has killed many civilians - i. e. unacceptable means - i. e. inacceptable deed, whatever the benefits. Catholic morality is deontological, not consequential.

But still, despite that, I kinda get it. I kinda find it hard to be that offended, because, well, sometimes when you fell a forest, the splinters fly. The "good guys" of WW2 probably know something about that.

Though I'm not really sure why we're talking about this in the Russia Invades Ukraine thread, which is an altogether different situation.

 

[Vaenyr]

I kinda agree with your complaint about the disproportionality. And despite me having been slightly more on the Israeli side from the onset, I'm nowadays at the point where I can't muster the inner conviction to even care anymore, since there is a lot of black vs. black in this conflict.

Still, although I realise the "Argumentum ad Hitlerum" is considered a faux-pas nowadays, I didn't make it on the last page solely for the purpose of the meme.

The thing is - your neighbour is, say, Nazi Germany (including the ideological hatred of the Jews in general). And you know there are certainly civilians who have a problem with that, but then again, there are many who are quite fine with the state of affairs. I do remember Palestinians and various affiliates publicly celebrating after the October attack last years all over the world. You know, dead Jewish pig is a dead Jewish pig, from the river to the sea, be harder on the kikes (I am currently using my K-word privileges since I suspect my family of being at least partially Jewish, because of our history, name etc. - and we even look the stereotype and I've had trouble with that before myself, so there). There were (and still are) swastikas and broken windows in the residences of Jewish people in the west. Have been even before the counterattack.

Which turns it into a question ... how many reciprocal casualties is enough? How long are you supposed to let your country, your nation, be bled again, civilians, children, etc. before you attack and you'll decapitate the Hydra whatever the cost? Before you'll take down the Hitler and the Goebbels, even though possibly half a million German civilians shall perish in the aftermath?

Now, I don't really condone that - as a proper Catholic boy I must protest even the usage of the atomic bomb, since it is indiscriminating and has killed many civilians - i. e. unacceptable means - i. e. inacceptable deed, whatever the benefits. Catholic morality is deontological, not consequential.

But still, despite that, I kinda get it. I kinda find it hard to be that offended, because, well, sometimes when you fell a forest, the splinters fly. The "good guys" of WW2 probably know something about that.

Though I'm not really sure why we're talking about this in the Russia Invades Ukraine thread, which is an altogether different situation.

The issue is that Israel has killed more civillians than Hamas ever did. It's obviously not about "defending themselves" anymore. They have more ambitions and are actively engaging in an ethnic cleansing campaign as recognized by various human rights groups.

Also, not excusing anything, but the children who are orphaned by the current atrocities are the ones who grow up with hate and resentment for Israel. It's a self-fueling machine creating terrorist rebels.

 

[Spaldy]

Jesus H Fucking Christmas. What's any of this got to do with Ukraine? There's a thread for Israel/Palestine.

Saying that, Azas can get fucked if they think that Bibis war on the middle east and the killing of thousands to end a handful of terrorist leaders is something to celebrate and not what it really is, a crime against humanity and an attempt to keep Netanyahu in power and out of jail where he belongs.

 

[Spaldy]

I do remember Palestinians and various affiliates publicly celebrating after the October attack last years all over the world.

Israel are currently operating Pleasure cruises where passengers can watch and enjoy the bombing of Gaza.

 

[Jer]

Israel are currently operating Pleasure cruises where passengers can watch and enjoy the bombing of Gaza.

In fairness, from your very own link:

• The "boat tour" itself was, and is not, a regular commercial exercise endorsed by Israel as implied by some social media posts.
• The people in the video are extremists and not representative of Israel as a whole.

 

[Spaldy]

In fairness, from your very own link:

• The "boat tour" itself was, and is not, a regular commercial exercise endorsed by Israel as implied by some social media posts.
• The people in the video are extremists and not representative of Israel as a whole.

The point being is to counter his claims that Palestinians were celebrating in the streets on October 7th as a representative of the whole. The same applies here.

 

[____no5]

Israel are currently operating Pleasure cruises where passengers can watch and enjoy the bombing of Gaza.

This sound as Nazi as anything I’ve ever heard.

 

[Vaenyr]

Also, to put "they were celebrating on the streets" somewhat in context. Literally half the Palestinians in Gaza were children or not even alive when the last election was held and Hamas won. Many of them only know suffering, fear and death, caused by Israel (because remember, this didn't start in October, this goes back decades). Many see Hamas as a force for freedom; they've seen friends and family blown to pieces. Years of conflict has radicalized many. Is it really surprising that some would approve of an attack? The children who've been orphaned since October will grow up to hate Israel and some will probably turn to weapons, to Hamas to "fight back".

Mind you, I'm not excusing the heinous terror attack of Hamas, nor am I defending terrorists. I'm simply trying to insert a bit of nuance in a very long and rather complicated conflict. As I've said before, the Israeli people deserve peace, dignity and respect, but so do the Palestinian people as well; so does every human on this planet. Many Israelis are against the actions of their government. Many Israelis are for a ceasefire as well. My stance is simple: I want the killing to stop. I'm sick of the war crimes being committed, while pretending to be the "most moral army in the world". I'm sick of IDF soldiers kicking dead bodies from rooftops in the West Bank. I'm sick of the killing and raping of innocents, which has been done both by Hamas and the IDF. I'm sick of the sheer bloodlust that people have for this conflict. I simply want a peaceful solution, as diplomatically difficult as it is.

But maybe this discussion should move to the appropriate thread instead of continuing an off-topic discussion here.

 

[Azas]

No, that's reductive bullshit. "Free Palestine" means an end to an ethnic cleansing campaign, as recognized by multiple human rights groups, including Israeli groups. The terror attack was horrible and people recognize that. This doesn't mean that Israel gets to do the same times an order of magnitude more in retaliation. That's bloodlust, pure and simple.

I disagree. With all due respect, do you really see it this way, as some reductive bullshit? If protester's slogan would be Free the Hostages, Free Palestine, then I would agree with you, but for now no no no. Protesters chanted Free Palestine, at the same time ignoring the big elephant in the room. They completely ignored hostages who were still in hamas tunnels. There was numerous incidents when palestine supporters teared down posters of Israeli hostages. Some of them said that this is Israel propaganda and hostages taken by hamas is legitimate move in their fight for freedom.
I will never agree with such stance. Those protesters are disinformed activists at best.
I'll repeat, Israel is no Saint, but they are proactive and act, they try to protect their people and when you act there will be inevitably errors made and splinters will fly. And when Ivory Towers inhabitants only strongly condemn but do not get serious about it, not helping to solve the problem at it's core, I say those may go to hell.

edit: from Google
"What is the conflict between Hezbollah and Israel?
Elimination of the state of Israel has been a primary goal for Hezbollah from its inception. Hezbollah opposes the government and policies of the State of Israel. Hezbollah has fought many conflicts with Israel including the South Lebanon conflict, the Shebaa Farms conflict, and the 2006 Lebanon War."

And yet some of you say that I am insensitive fuck or whatever. Israel has no other option, Hezbollah's stance is clear. Some of you still rooting for Hezbollah? Truly brainwashed inhabitants of Ivory Towers. Open your eyes, the World is still a dangerous place and you can't stay above the fight forever (to condemn from roadside) Sooner or later we all will be choosing sides and I am choosing Israel not terrorists whose primary goal is to eliminate other. Jeez.

 

[Vaenyr]

I disagree. With all due respect, do you really see it this way, as some reductive bullshit? If protester's slogan would be Free the Hostages, Free Palestine, then I would agree with you, but for now no no no. Protesters chanted Free Palestine, at the same time ignoring the big elephant in the room. They completely ignored hostages who were still in hamas tunnels. There was numerous incidents when palestine supporters teared down posters of Israeli hostages. Some of them said that this is Israel propaganda and hostages taken by hamas is legitimate move in their fight for freedom.
I will never agree with such stance. Those protesters are disinformed activists at best.
I'll repeat, Israel is no Saint, but they are proactive and act, they try to protect their people and when you act there will be inevitably errors made and splinters will fly. And when Ivory Towers inhabitants only strongly condemn but do not get serious about it, not helping to solve the problem at it's core, I say those may go to hell.

See my response in the Israel-Palestine thread.

 

[Night Prowler]

Closing this thread as well for a bit as the discussion from the other war threads bled out here.

 

[Night Prowler]

Hi Maidenfans,

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[Azas]

So, Trump was elected as the next president of the USA. And I am very worried what he will do to Ukraine. What he will do to NATO. Will he be the worst case scenario or will he be much like Biden? Or maybe he will prove us all wrong? I don't know, but so far his appointments does not look promising at all. My only hope that US has some sensible deep state officials who will guide him through all of this. The war is going on for almost three years. What conclusion we can draw? Appeasement and de escalation simply does not work. With terrorist country like russia you must act, or you will end up doing what putin wants. Now the West is not very far away from failing Ukraine. After all what was said and done. Without military US support I am in a very big doubts that Europe can carry this burden alone. In a light of all of this, what can be said about Biden administration? With a heavy heart, - an esp. if Trump will be putin friendly - your politics failed. It started to fail even when Obama was in the Oval Office. When he did nothing substantial to deter putin. And if Ukraine will fall it will be not only Trump's fault but you also have contributed significantly to this, fellow Democrats. If you do not suppress the criminal in the early stages, the price of your inaction will only go higher.

Like i already mentioned, I'm already in some denial stage and I bear surreal/stupid hope that Trump was demonized beyond belief and he will turn out just normal. It's all very sad.

edit: and when Biden allowed to strike russia? When his term as a president is ending. Too little too late.

 

[Vaenyr]

Not only doesn't Trump listen to experts or officials, he often goes explicitly against their guidance (like the assassination of Qasem Soleimani back in 2020). He has made his stance on this pretty clear for quite a while; holding on to blind hope that he will support Ukraine is unrealistic I'm afraid. Trump's win means Ukraine is fucked.

Whether you think Biden and the West did enough or not; blaming them more than Trump is silly, imo. Inadequate funds and help are still better than no help at all. We can lament the fact that not enough was done to help the Ukrainian military, but should also accurately assign blame and recognize that Trump has vowed to end this conflict, at the expense of the Ukrainian people.

 

[Azas]

Whether you think Biden and the West did enough or not; blaming them more than Trump is silly, imo.

I disagree. It's one thing, when one was betrayed by some random lunatic who declared what he will do in advance and it's a completely different thing/level when one was betrayed by FRIEND or ALLIES. Just think about it for a second.

 

[Vaenyr]

I disagree. It's one thing, when one was betrayed by some random lunatic who declared what he will do in advance and it's a completely different thing/level when one was betrayed by FRIEND or ALLIES. Just think about it for a second.

The difference of opinion you and I have on this topic is that you see it as a "betrayal". Obviously, more could be done, but we also can't forget the fact that Russia has nukes. You might think that Putin is just bluffing, but even if there's a miniscule chance that he'd be mad enough to use the nukes that's enough of a reason to show restraint, imo.

 

[Azas]

Ukraine also had nukes. USA, along with other countries, asked them to give it to russia. If that's not looming betrayal, then I don't know what is.