Russia invades Ukraine

Azas said:
Ukraine also had nukes. USA, along with other countries, asked them to give it to russia. If that's not looming betrayal, then I don't know what is.
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Then I suppose you don't know what a betrayal is. In hindsight, Ukraine should have kept some of them, because the treaty isn't being respected. Yes, the world was indeed naive with what the collapse of the Soviet Empire would entail and it's quite obvious the hopes for a democratic Russia were shattered long before Ukraine was invaded. But the realities are that Russia has an enormous capacity that has in parts been unleashed on Ukraine, and the West have likely been too slow in their moving of Putin's red lines. But the reasoning for it isn't stupid, because the risk of nuclear weapons getting used or a nuclear war isn't null, they are the highest since the Cold War.
 
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Given stunts like poisonings, shooting down airliners, rivals dying/falling out of windows/planes crashing, cutting undersea cables, and generally menacing neighbouring countries, I wouldn't really put anything past Putin or his followers.

He'd probably let one or two off then claim it was an accident or actually done by Ukraine. It's not only Ukraine that stands to be nuked either, anyone near him is right to be nervous.

I totally understand you're annoyed too little has been done for Ukraine, Azas, but nobody has the upper hand here.
 
I understand what you all trying to tell me. And I'm trying to convey this:
hypothetically, if Ukraine falls.. 3-5-10 years down the lane.
pootin/russia: I want Baltic states.
Baltic States: We told you so!
the West: That's unacceptable! We strongly condemn!
pootin: I have nukes, you know.
the West:
..
pootin/russia: I want Poland.
the West: We will fight!
pootin/russia: prepare nukes.
the West:
..
pootin/russia: I want East Germany
Germany: Scheiße!
..
pootin/russia: I want... Alaska!
USA: ?

The thing is, sooner or later you will have to stand up and do something meaningful/substantial. That's all.
 
Exactly. And being seen to launch a serious attack on Russian soil will give him much greater justification to attack.

The US is the least likely to be attacked because there's serious firepower there and probably a willingness to use it. Plus his mate Trump. Europe is not so safe, isn't united, and may not get backing from the US before too long.

Everyone is basically hoping he gets too old for this crap before too long or is toppled from power.
 
Brigantium said:
Everyone is basically hoping he gets too old for this crap before too long or is toppled from power.
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Dunno about everyone but I personally am hoping for something much more painful and irreversible.

And I'm surprised that 1000+ days later many of you still don't seem to grasp exactly how sick russian "society" is, or the threat to civilization it is.

Google гопник and понты ffs.
 
I may be crucified for this, but lately I am beginning to think of The West / Democratic World as the Roman Empire...
 
Nah, in my book the barbarians who destroyed the Roman Empire were the good guys. Not so the **** we're talking about.
 
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I'm posting all of this not because I like to be pain in the ass. I just want to open the eyes of some of you, who still believe that the Collective West acts right and sufficiently towards authoritarian regimes. I personally think that the West is in serious systemic governance crisis. The West is still dormant like King Theoden from Lord of the Rings.

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The problem will not go away by choosing inaction. It only will get worse. Obama did nothing and he failed. Right now I am choosing Friedrich Merz, solely because of his position regarding Taurus, because he is choosing strength over inaction. What is wrong with the free world? You still believe that by downplaying the treat it will go away and all will return to normal? No way. You can't play chess with dictators because they play not by the rules.
Frau Merkel released memoirs, in interviews she claims she does not regret anything. Yeah, right... In my eyes her politics was miserable from today's point of view. The West has such industrial and military might, yet acts like... King Theoden.
 
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Azas said:
Right now I am choosing Friedrich Merz, solely because of his position regarding Taurus, because he is choosing strength over inaction.
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If you were familiar with German politics in any way you'd know what a ludicrous statement that is lmao

You aren't "opening anyone's eyes". You aren't objectively correct and we aren't the blind ones. We simply disagree with your stance. Overall most members here are against Russia as well, so we aren't as far apart as you might think. The major difference is that some are choosing caution in the face of a nuclear power instead of going all-in, which would 100% result in nuclear retaliation.

It's fine to post your opinion. You have every right to do so and it's also okay to be frustrated with the entire situation. It's valid to be unhappy that we aren't seeing what you are seeing, but at the end of the day everyone has different lines, different principles and different approaches to these topics :)
 
I am definitely not correct on all issues, but when I see that Obama did nothing substantial regarding Syria and Ukraine and now we see results, I am definitely on the right path here. When I look back on Merkel's politics I see her wrongdoings. Even then, for us was evident that all that business with russia is very wrong. I'm just not ignoring correlation and logic here. And I disagree about 100% nuclear retaliation. How many russia's red lines were already crossed?

I am definitely seeing USA as the World Policeman. Like it or not. We do not have other/better in our World. And if USA will actively refuse to continue this role many will suffer/already suffering.

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You will never see me defend Merkel, or many of Obama's transgressions for that matter. I'm 100% in agreement with you there.
And I also agree that in many instances the US could do more (while at the same time it needs to be said that they really need to stop involving themselves so much with state-backed coups in foreign countries).

Where I disagree is that I believe Putin to be an unstable madman who could be pushed into doing the unthinkable. In a just world his regime would be crushed. But an active fight against Russia could see nukes flying, which would be catastrophic for the entire world. At least that's the way I see things. That obviously doesn't mean that Putin should be able to do anything he wants; far from it. I'm just trying to explain why I think being cautious in these matters is understandable.
 
I get Your position regarding cautiousness. But the question remains the same: for how long it is ok to choose cautiousness over the decision enough is enough, it must be stopped? russia already annexed parts of Georgia, razed Syria to the ground, devastates Ukraine right now. Supports all sorts and kinds of terrorists in the whole world; russia's mercenaries operate in Africa, list goes on and on. Yet, we as the West are acting like... King Theoden. We are letting putin to act like he does. The line between cautiousness and indifference or even complicity is thin, you know.
 
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