The Israel-Palestine Conflict

[____no5]

President Harris won't tolerate anymore of their shit.

What makes you think that? 50+ standing ovations my friend for a 50 minutes speech applauding a genocidal freak, knowing he is such. US politicians seem to be owned by Israeli lobby. And Harris even if she’ve chosen to abstain from the shit show she did meet Netanyahu in private.

It’s not all black though, most certainly Israel won’t have its way forever but thinking that anything will change in one term plus by a weak and uncharismatic Harris is wishful thinking at best. It will take time, read decades and probably more horrible events to come for US to stop their unconditional support to Israel and the latter become a normal country at last.

 

[Diesel 11]

Netanyahu is a dud but Israel did the right thing. Like KK Priest said If you sow the wind, you will reap the whirlwind. No mercy for hamas scumbags.

 

[____no5]

"President Biden privately demanded in a "tough" call Thursday that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu stop escalating tensions in the region and move immediately toward a Gaza hostage and ceasefire deal, two U.S. officials told Axios."

Netanyahu is shitting his pants as we speak...

https://www.axios.com/2024/08/02/biden-netanyahu-call-israel-iran-hezbollah

 

[Azas]

You missed the most important part: Azas when hamas kills a bunch of people.
hamas started the last iteration of terror not Israel. No mercy for hamas. Eradicate them all.

 

[Vaenyr]

hamas started the last iteration of terror not Israel.

This whole thing didn't start in October. This goes back decades.

Edit: Also, while Hamas is a terrorist organization that has committed heinous crimes, the IDF has killed more innocent civilians in the last few months than Hamas ever did. Being a victim of a terror attack doesn't give you the right to indiscriminately slaughter innocent human beings.

 

[Perun]

You missed the most important part: Azas when hamas kills a bunch of people.
hamas started the last iteration of terror not Israel. No mercy for hamas. Eradicate them all.

Even the Israeli government estimates up to 16000 civilian deaths caused by IDF in the current Gaza War - civilians, as in non-Hamas. You're just being selective and, as always, uninformed.

 

[____no5]

Palestinian confirmed deaths are nearing 40,000 now. Which means real deaths, unfound under the rubble could be significantly higher. Add to that ~100,000 injured. To put in perspective civilian casualties in Ukraine after 2 1/2 years of war are ~11,000 deaths and ~22,000 injured.

This is beyond brutal. Considering the tiny area Palestinians are living and almost complete destruction of infrastructure and hospitals; even the completely uninjured people will carry a huge psychological trauma for the rest of their lives and generations after.

Also that we are informed about all these almost in real time and despite the ICJ verdicts Netanyahu is getting 50 standing ovations for 50 minutes speech in the Congress. The warrant for his arrest has been discussed for months but still not issued.
And that despite the brutal crime, there are no significant sanctions against Israel which is still competing in the Olympic Games.

 

[Mosh]

View attachment 38089

The amount of irony in this thread makes me wonder if @Azas is a Russian bot or parody account.

 

[Azas]

Ha ha try harder.

Not begging you
I'm telling you
You won't break me
You won't make me
You won't take me under blood red skies

 

[Perun]

For the record, the gist of this is us asking Azas to read up on what he's talking about and him saying "NEVER!"

 

[Azas]

For the record, after hamas attack, Israel has every right to fight back. That's my opinion and I will not change it. So far hamas did not released all hostages. And we all know pretty well what hamas are doing with hostages in captivity... hamas must cease to exist. After that we can speak about two state solution. Death's of civilians in war is unavoidable.

 

[Vaenyr]

For the record, after hamas attack, Israel has every right to fight back.

Sure, but the response has to be proportional. Especially considering the IDF's capabilities.

And we all know pretty well what hamas are doing with hostages...

I'm not gonna pretend Hamas isn't doing heinous shit. But let's not sugarcoat things. The IDF is not much better, especially when we consider the recent reporting of torture and rape of Palestinian prisoners. It's possible to condemn both, you know?

Death's of civilians in war is unavoidable.

Again: The IDF killed more people in less than a year than Hamas ever did. We aren't talking about collateral damage. The ratio of civilian to terrorist deaths is extremely skewed towards one side.

 

[____no5]

It’s all about cleansing Gaza, make it inhabitable so Palestinians are forced to leave. There are serious indications that this was the purpose all along. It’s called genocide for a reason.

 

[Shmoolikipod]

It’s all about cleansing Gaza, make it inhabitable so Palestinians are forced to leave. There are serious indications that this was the purpose all along. It’s called genocide for a reason.

All along, probably not, considering how many voices were expecting it to be over within two weeks, then a month then three..., the endless turmoil here around the hostage deal, foreseen complications with Iran/Hizballah, how there's nothing to gain from it other than satisfaction for the sick people in the government, and the inflated numbers due to the nature of the war.

Spoiler

There are idiots here on every level, from civilians to military personnel and entire units to leadership, that wanted to flatten Gaza from the start, yes. Vile people that would have been Hamas members if they were born on the other side of the fence. Those wishes weren't excusable even in 7.10 and all the undisciplined twats that acted on them and obviously made the body count higher than it "should" be, can go fuck themselves to say the least. Only feel I should add this because you (plural) seem to have a problem with sugarcoating by omission.

 

[____no5]

I hear you @Shmoolikipod. It’s good to get voice from the ground. I’m talking about those sick people in the government and/or positions of power. The peoples follow along with the right amount of brainwashing as peoples always do, I refuse to believe 80% of the population in Israel (or anywhere) are bad people.
The really accountable ones could be in a scale of hundreds.

Here to express my absolute respect and admiration for the heroes who risked their careers and future to stand against the avalanche of madness.

 

[JudasMyGuide]

The amount of irony in this thread makes me wonder if @Azas is a Russian bot or parody account.

Disclaimer - I don't agree with Azas' unconditional support. In fact, I don't agree with much support at all here, I have stopped supporting Israel in the meantime and I liked Vaenyr's post, agreeing with him for the most part (is that the first time in politics? Heh) - if I had to pick my poison, I'd still take Israel as the slightly lesser evil, but the difference is currently like 0,00001%.

And yet, although I'm mostly on the side "evil vs evil" regarding this issue, especially currently, I consider comparing Russia with Israel as a very, very braindead take. Offensive take.

I mean, say what you will, but Palestinians still have managed to bring a lot of things upon themselves. Most likely they would still have had their original borders, if they hadn't decided to join forces with their other friends and try to erase Israel from the map from the very start. I also wonder why none of their friends in the region doesn't take refugees from Palestine - maybe their eyes are on Lebanon.

Also, they elected Hamas into power themselves. And yes, this is a retaliation for an absolute insane terrorist attack by a "party" which they have elected, never helped to eliminate and which is so ingrained in the region and its infrastructure, it would be unfeasible to do anything against them if you wanted to be completely clean - the only "correct" option would be to probably stand down and let your civilians die and be kidnapped and beheaded and whatnot. While the UN that's utterly rife with pro-Palestinian agents and rhetorics would probably still point at Israel as being the bad guys, somehow.

Ukraine on the other hand, did exactly one stupid thing. They let go of their nuclear weapons in '91, because they believed Russia's and the West's promises that they will be left alone and will keep their borders.

Israeli's retaliation is legitimate at least in theory (and I already said I'm pissed off about the execution and I've ceased my support of Israel since it began), regardless of what you or I or whoever thinks about their political representation. Russia/Ukraine is an example of uninstigated, expansionist aggression, which is something that particular country has been good with for centuries. And yeah, people in my country remember. We have the experience with fucking Russia. Decades. Hundreds of years, in a way.


So, with that in mind and with having this in mind:
Since I was a kid, this was the mainstream narrative - that kinda pre-formed my opinion almost in itself.




I don't blame Azas as much and honestly, I don't find the rest of you to be the voice of reason in some particular contrast. Especially with Diesel's fucking memes.


Maybe it's a national thing - before the USSR has decided it's "lost" Israel and started with the brutal antisemitism (including killing Jewish politicians within the party) and orienting towards the Arab countries, we (Czechoslovakia) as a satellite have actually helped to train and to arm Israeli soldiers and pilots. In fact, soon afterwards one of the Prime Ministers has said that "without Czechoslovakia, there would be no Israel."

I'm pissed off at the situation, at Netanjahu, at Israel, but in a way, I get it. To even survive these past decades in a place surrounded by hostile countries (that get a much better PR-points from the left, which has been the mainstream narrative for quite a long time) you have to get cynical. Utilitarianistic. Evil, to a degree. And now the degree is too much.
(that's beyond Benji and the cunts he surround himself with, I'm talking more generally)


I've left the other politics threads, but mates, I'm not saying you have to get off your leftie high horse, just ... bridle it a bit, okay? You make it sometimes really hard to agree with you even when there's a reason.

 

[Azas]

Disclaimer - I don't agree with Azas' unconditional support. In fact, I don't agree with much support at all here, I have stopped supporting Israel in the meantime and I liked Vaenyr's post, agreeing with him for the most part (is that the first time in politics? Heh) - if I had to pick my poison, I'd still take Israel as the slightly lesser evil, but the difference is currently like 0,00001%.

And yet, although I'm mostly on the side "evil vs evil" regarding this issue, especially currently, I consider comparing Russia with Israel as a very, very braindead take. Offensive take.

I mean, say what you will, but Palestinians still have managed to bring a lot of things upon themselves. Most likely they would still have had their original borders, if they hadn't decided to join forces with their other friends and try to erase Israel from the map from the very start. I also wonder why none of their friends in the region doesn't take refugees from Palestine - maybe their eyes are on Lebanon.

Also, they elected Hamas into power themselves. And yes, this is a retaliation for an absolute insane terrorist attack by a "party" which they have elected, never helped to eliminate and which is so ingrained in the region and its infrastructure, it would be unfeasible to do anything against them if you wanted to be completely clean - the only "correct" option would be to probably stand down and let your civilians die and be kidnapped and beheaded and whatnot. While the UN that's utterly rife with pro-Palestinian agents and rhetorics would probably still point at Israel as being the bad guys, somehow.

Ukraine on the other hand, did exactly one stupid thing. They let go of their nuclear weapons in '91, because they believed Russia's and the West's promises that they will be left alone and will keep their borders.

Israeli's retaliation is legitimate at least in theory (and I already said I'm pissed off about the execution and I've ceased my support of Israel since it began), regardless of what you or I or whoever thinks about their political representation. Russia/Ukraine is an example of uninstigated, expansionist aggression, which is something that particular country has been good with for centuries. And yeah, people in my country remember. We have the experience with fucking Russia. Decades. Hundreds of years, in a way.


So, with that in mind and with having this in mind:
Since I was a kid, this was the mainstream narrative - that kinda pre-formed my opinion almost in itself.

View attachment 38115


I don't blame Azas as much and honestly, I don't find the rest of you to be the voice of reason in some particular contrast. Especially with Diesel's fucking memes.


Maybe it's a national thing - before the USSR has decided it's "lost" Israel and started with the brutal antisemitism (including killing Jewish politicians within the party) and orienting towards the Arab countries, we (Czechoslovakia) as a satellite have actually helped to train and to arm Israeli soldiers and pilots. In fact, soon afterwards one of the Prime Ministers has said that "without Czechoslovakia, there would be no Israel."

I'm pissed off at the situation, at Netanjahu, at Israel, but in a way, I get it. To even survive these past decades in a place surrounded by hostile countries (that get a much better PR-points from the left, which has been the mainstream narrative for quite a long time) you have to get cynical. Utilitarianistic. Evil, to a degree. And now the degree is too much.
(that's beyond Benji and the cunts he surround himself with, I'm talking more generally)


I've left the other politics threads, but mates, I'm not saying you have to get off your leftie high horse, just ... bridle it a bit, okay? You make it sometimes really hard to agree with you even when there's a reason.

Very good Great points.

 

[Vaenyr]

This has nothing to do with "lefties" on their "high horses". This is simply a very biased look on the whole situation. Trying to put the blame, even to a degree, of what Hamas is doing on the Palestinian people, literally half of which weren't even alive or eligible to vote in 2006 is disingenuous. Also, again, this thing goes back literal decades and claiming Hamas is the one always attacking while Israel only defends itself is simply wrong. Leaving out the context of the capabilities of the IDF vs those of Hamas does a lot of heavy lifting as well.

Yes, Hamas sees a lot of support in Palestine. You know why that is? Because, if for all your life all your friends and family are blown up, raped and slaughtered, when you are forced to flee your home, of course the group that will try to fight against the source of suffering (in their eyes) will be hailed as a fight for change.

I believe Israel has a right to exist and the citizens have the right to live a life of happiness and just like every human being should be able to. A massive attack campaign that amounts to ethnic cleansing is not how these rights can be maintained. The Israeli government has the full support of the world's mightiest super power. Obviously they face hostility and hatred from their neighbours but let's not pretend that Israel wouldn't be able to crush them in war. This line of arguing becomes even more ridiculous when you think about the recent assassinations, showing Israel's strength.

Finally, getting upset about memes and high horses instead of people justifying the slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent civilians? Seriously? That's the line? It genuinely feels like an excuse to once again shit on "the left" and their "perceived moral superiority", instead of addressing what is actually being argued. If you take more umbrage with someone on the left coming across as too arrogant or smug instead of the unconditional support for literal genocide, as recognized by multiple human rights organizations including some Isreali ones, then I genuinely don't know what to say to you.

And all of this is just about Gaza. What's the justification for the harassment and bullying of Palestinians in the West Bank where there is no Hamas? What's the justification about the illegal settlement and occupation, as recognized by international law, and the continuous expansion?

 

[____no5]

To be disgusted by a genocide has nothing to do with being a "leftie". There is zero justification for what Israel is doing.

 

[Vaenyr]

Moving this from the Russia thread:

I disagree. With all due respect, do you really see it this way, as some reductive bullshit?

Yes, absolutely. "Free Palestine" is a perfectly apt slogan for an open-air prison; the largest in the world in fact.

If protester's slogan would be Free the Hostages, Free Palestine, then I would agree with you, but for now no no no. Protesters chanted Free Palestine, at the same time ignoring the big elephant in the room. They completely ignored hostages who were still in hamas tunnels.

That's objectively incorrect. The majority of pro-Palestine protesters want the hostages freed, from the get go.

There was numerous incidents when palestine supporters teared down posters of Israeli hostages. Some of them said that this is Israel propaganda and hostages taken by hamas is legitimate move in their fight for freedom.

Sure, any movement has people with shitty motivations. That's not a valid reason to paint all protesters with the same brush. Again, I've told you this multiple times but there are many Jewish and Israeli people who are in favor of a ceasefire and against the actions of the Israeli government. Stop with your constant strawmen and reductive bullshit and start acknowledging the simple facts.

I will never agree with such stance. Those protesters are disinformed activists at best.

Disinformation goes both ways, as we've seen with plenty of your posts, where you ignore actual facts and evidence.

I'll repeat, Israel is no Saint, but they are proactive and act, they try to protect their people and when you act there will be inevitably errors made and splinters will fly.

No "errors; no "splinters will fly". They are responsible for the majority of civilian deaths. Let me repeat:

Israel has killed more innocent civilians than Hamas ever did.

Again, you are cheering on bloodlust. This has nothing to do with defense anymore. Multiple human rights groups have recognized this. Multiple Israeli groups too. Stop defending literal war crimes. Also, Netenyahu has literally supported Hamas because he needed them for his goals.

And when Ivory Towers inhabitants only strongly condemn but do not get serious about it, not helping to solve the problem at it's core, I say those may go to hell.

Nah, that's just your justification to defend war crimes, human rights violations and an ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign.