USA Politics

Well, I disagree with Islam; I especially disagree with human rights violations perpetrated in the name of Allah. However, I don't think most American Muslims, or even more than a handful, are dangerous extremists. And things like Quran burning and the protests against the New York Islamic community centre serve to obfuscate the issue and push the idea that ALL Muslims are radicals. And that is a harmful idea we must combat.
 
I agree with that, but I also think it is only a handful of people that are going to participate in this Koran burning.  There are certainly assholes in every crowd, but the real assholes are the ones that kill innocent men, women, children  ... the radical Islamists .. and to a much lesser degree in terms of actual harm, a small group of misguided people who are burning the Koran.
 
Yes, but the point is that just because group A (radical Islam) are a bunch of assholes doesn't mean group B (Koran burners) aren't. All I'm saying is that if I want to explain why Muslim's religious taboos shouldn't and don't apply to me, that's fine. But book burning isn't anything you can disguise as positive. Or even try.
 
Book burning is certainly not positive, but it is more positive (or much less negative if you prefer) than people burning.  There are degrees of assholes.
 
Yes, but one of those things is Constiutionally-protected free speech - the other is an illegal act. Look, I agree that they can do it…I just think it's ridiculous that they are. Aw well, though, the door swings both ways.

And if the door swings both ways, we could try to reverse the flow of energy from our world into theirs.

How?

Cross the streams.
 
I say we put the radical Islamic Terrorists in the same room as the radical Quran burning Americans and let them fight it out. Everybody wins.
 
What are they even trying to accomplish?  Do they expect Muslims to see "Christians" burning their holy book and flock to Christian churches en masse?  They're just real-life trolls.
Suicidehummer said:
I say we put the radical Islamic Terrorists in the same room as the radical Quran burning Americans and let them fight it out. Everybody wins.
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This solution would be great, and we would get some awesome reality TV out of it too.
 
Wasted CLV said:
I'm a little fuzzy on the old 'good/bad' thing.
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Try to imagine, if you will, life as you know it stopping and then every molecule exploding at the speed of light.

Total protonic reversal.
 
Forostar said:
Yes, Genghis, intolerance increases everywhere, but the way the hate spreads rapidly in the US -and especially the way it is expressed by US civilians- is new, at least for me. Just look what happened in the last couple of weeks. It really deserves some attention.

Here you go: 7 and a half minutes item. Check it out, this insightful item on Islamophobia on the rise in the USA.
http://nieuwsuur.nl/video/183430-vrees- ... in-vs.html
Warning: there's a disgusting hatespeech in it.
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She has the history of religious freedom in America correct.  The public education system, for example, was pushed by Protestants in order to 'educate' the Catholics on the Protestant religion.  Good thing is that at 4:30 a couple of youths are holding a 'freedom of religion' sign. 
 
LooseCannon said:
Try to imagine, if you will, life as you know it stopping and then every molecule exploding at the speed of light.

Total protonic reversal.
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That's bad.  OK, all right, important safety tip.  Thanks, LC.
 
Forostar said:
Political reaction on the burn-a-Quran plans:
Clinton condems Quran burning.
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I like this speech.  

But still how many Americans are participating in this hate-mongering?  I'd hope most are tolerant and I think they are.  And how many are aware that the "Ground Zero" mosque was not a mosque planned?
bearfan said:
A few points, the radicals amongst the Islamists should be watched and are far more intolerant than the vast majority of Americans.  It is perfectly fine to challenge Islam on

1) theological grounds (for those who are into that sort of thing, I am not)
2) actions of their radicals (or really radicals anywhere).
3) the way Islam treats non-Muslims
4) the way Islam treats women
5) the actions of Muslim states
6) The way Islam depicts the Jews
7) Those clerics that openly promote violence
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I'm not sure what you mean by #1, but I agree with all of your other points.  By the way, I'm an atheist.
bearfan said:
I am not suggesting Forostar is saying this, but there are many valid criticisms against Islam and to mention them in any forum from academia to parody is cited as intolerant by some people.  There are things we should not be tolerant of, that would include many tenents and actions of Islamists.
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While Forostar and I have disagreed on issues in the past, I know for a fact he criticizes Islam when warranted.  My perception is that he sees a wider anti-Islam sentiments arising in America.  Personally, I don't think these sentiments have grown over the past nine years.
 
The thing people have to understand is there are a shit ton of people in the USA.  And among that shit ton, there are a small percentage that talk way too much about things like this.  The other thing is this:  most people don't have a problem with other religions/cultures/races/countries/<insert problem here>.  They just don't go around talking about it.  I have plenty of friends, acquaintances, etc that feel like this.  Normal Americans don't run around talking about how accepting they are-- not that they aren't, but there are so many things to discuss, that that doesn't make the top ten.  So, the only people that you hear from are the extremists.  The ones that are 'news worthy' and drive up ratings.  Please, don't judge our country, and its 'impending decline into race/religion hate' on the few that hit the tv/papers.
 
Wasted CLV said:
Normal Americans don't run around talking about how accepting they are-- not that they aren't, but there are so many things to discuss, that that doesn't make the top ten.  So, the only people that you hear from are the extremists.  The ones that are 'news worthy' and drive up ratings.  Please, don't judge our country, and its 'impending decline into race/religion hate' on the few that hit the tv/papers.
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Thank you.  I had this thought in the back of my mind, but I wanted it heard from an American.  This sensationalization of press is the main reason I don't watch American mainstream news.

EDIT: Good thing there is the internet.
 
bearfan said:
A few points, the radicals amongst the Islamists should be watched and are far more intolerant than the vast majority of Americans.  It is perfectly fine to challenge Islam on

1) theological grounds (for those who are into that sort of thing, I am not)
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That will lead NOWHERE as all religions claim to be "the one" by the majority of their followers, while all "progressive" followers understand that different strokes for different folks.

2) actions of their radicals (or really radicals anywhere).
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Again moot point because Jew and Christian radicals act the same way...

3) the way Islam treats non-Muslims
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Um... same way Mormons treat non-mormons? with quiet respect but secretly laughing at you because you'll burn in hell while they are "saved?"

4) the way Islam treats women
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This is a good point. While all societies treat women like minorities (Yes.. ALL societies, if you wish to take it up with me PM me so as to not derail this topic) Muslim countries still have a tribal mentality when it comes to their women.

5) the actions of Muslim states
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What about the action of Christian states? I don't care how "secular" the United States or France claim to be. How do you think Muslims take the invasion of Iraq and the banning of burkas in public schools? Just saying.

6) The way Islam depicts the Jews
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How do they treat the Jews? last I heard they treat them better than Christians... after all they are both purely monotheistic and unlike Christians, Jews keep to themselves... If you mean their actions against Israel, that's different, but overall they don't mistreat Jews any more then other groups do. Christians have done much more heinous things to them I'm ashamed to say.

7) Those clerics that openly promote violence
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Like the Christian clerics that tell their folks that those damn muslims are coming to this country to kill innocent Christians? as well as how homosexuals are destroying the moral fiber of the nation? That those damn illegals are selling your children drugs, taking your jobs and taking your women?

I guess what I'm trying to say is, he who is free of sin cast the first stone.... extactly.















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p4warrior said:
What are they even trying to accomplish?  Do they expect Muslims to see "Christians" burning their holy book and flock to Christian churches en masse?  They're just real-life trolls.
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I think they're just hateful assholes trying to accomplish nothing. It is possible however, that they have twisted enough perspectives to think that they are doing something good. Which is exactly why I think there is no such thing as good or bad, just things you can justify and things you can't, and it's different for every person.

Wasted CLV said:
The thing people have to understand is there are a shit ton of people in the USA.  And among that shit ton, there are a small percentage that talk way too much about things like this.  The other thing is this:  most people don't have a problem with other religions/cultures/races/countries/<insert problem here>.  They just don't go around talking about it.  I have plenty of friends, acquaintances, etc that feel like this.  Normal Americans don't run around talking about how accepting they are-- not that they aren't, but there are so many things to discuss, that that doesn't make the top ten.  So, the only people that you hear from are the extremists.  The ones that are 'news worthy' and drive up ratings.  Please, don't judge our country, and its 'impending decline into race/religion hate' on the few that hit the tv/papers.
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Well said, but I don't totally agree.

Let's just put this into perspective; the church that's holding this Quran burning has about 50 members. Let's say they represent the extremist Americans. This makes them seem very unrepresentative of America as a whole. However, Fox News dominates the ratings compared to the other (less biased) news channels. They may not agree with the Quran burners, but they seem awful similar when it comes to intolerance.

So although most Americans aren't as extreme as this small group, there are still a shitload of intolerant idiots here. Just look at the turnout for Glenn Beck's rally.
 
I am troubled that President Obama refuses to visit the site of the World Trade Center on September 11th. This is the 2nd year he chose not to go.
 
I guess what I'm trying to say is, he who is free of sin cast the first stone.... extactly.


Really, if you want to compare the US and modern western democracies to the Taliban, Iran, Sadam's regime etc I suppose that is your business, I am quite happy being an American.  Are we perfect, certainly not.  But over the course of our history we have done much more "good" than "bad".













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bearfan said:
I guess what I'm trying to say is, he who is free of sin cast the first stone.... extactly.


Really, if you want to compare the US and modern western democracies to the Taliban, Iran, Sadam's regime etc I suppose that is your business, I am quite happy being an American.  Are we perfect, certainly not.  But over the course of our history we have done much more "good" than "bad".
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I can't believe I have to explain that quote.... take it however you want.
 
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