The Red And The Black

How good is The Red and the Black on a scale of 1-10?

  • Total voters
    21
frus said:
It's quite similar to The Unbeliever, only simpler. This is the only part of the song that sounds superfluous to me, I'd prefer if it only appeared once (as a transition, with no drums and bass)
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I think it wasn't the best idea to use it. As you say, it reminds of The Unbeliever, and a very similar melody was used in a very similar role in The Talisman after the guitar solos. It's too different for me to call it a copy, but it still feels like 'Arry repeats himself too much with that part.
 
Caveman Ninja said:
It's a mess. A catchy mess.
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I think this comes closest to summing up my opinion of the song. It feels like a jumble of ideas, some which I like more than others, and I'm not really sure yet what to make of the song as a whole. That said, there's a lot of classic Maiden guitar riffs and melodies in here.
 
I really want to like this song more than I do. I've liked all of the Harris solo penned songs on the last few albums but this one is just too patchy for me. I LOVE the guitar parts from 9:00-end and some of the lyrics and the chorus but this song could have easily had 4-5 minutes chopped off without losing anything important.
 
The fact that the chorus comes in at around 6 minutes in the song, while Bruce is singing the same irritating melodies again and again is beyond me. However I quite enjoy the instrumental part and at least we don't get the chorus again at the end.
 
Gk1 said:
The fact that the chorus comes in at around 6 minutes in the song, while Bruce is singing the same irritating melodies again and again is beyond me.
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It's not a chorus per se (just because the song's name is mentioned in it), it's just another section of the song, which is not repeated again. It just has that kind of (odd) structure
 
frus said:
It's not a chorus per se (just because the song's name is mentioned in it), it's just another section of the song, which is not repeated again. It just has that kind of (odd) structure
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Fair enough, I just feel it adds nothing to the song. Just some more melody lines...at least Bruce does not sound strained but still , in my opinion, these vocal lines are repeated again and again for no reason whatsoever.
 
Well, I guess it is also ok to fail sometimes....that is if you are trying new things, as Steve is doing here.
 
A listen to this song after a long time and it pisses me off actually... This track could be so great, but it's ruined by poor arranging...

Let me start:
Bass Intro - That should be a statement with which Steve says this is one of our best songs we have ever done seat back and enjoy the ride... It is instead played sloppy and gives me feeling that it's there just because it needs to be.

Verses - As a musician the verses are quite boring to me... 100000 hours of e minor chord pounding. I think that Steve could think of something more original here (even though I can live with that). The thing that annoys me the most is the guitar that plays the vocal line. It absolutely kills Bruce's phrasing. Just imagine adding that to ROTAM... it would create a similar effect. That guitar works great in WTWWB where the lines are not sung so rapidly, but here... it basicly kills Bruce's vocals and annoys me.

Oh oh oh oh's - This is the point where the doubling guitar works. It adds depth and the epicness of that part. Again I could do without it doubling the "I need somebody to save me".

Chorus - Strange transition into this part (they could be more adventourus with that, especially Nicko who is very reserved with his drumming on this track), otherwise good chorus, nothing wrong with that.

Instrumental bit - Strange tempo changes, they ruin the song flow for me. Again great melodies but they don't flow seemlessly. I would like to hear some drum fills and different melodies during those transitions and not just speeding up. It feels like it was put together in Cubase from different ideas and glued together. The only transition that works for me is the one before the last bit of the instrumental and then into oh oh oh's (that one is strange again).

Overall - This song suffered the most from the write and record approach. I was really hoping to get more from that song. I didn't like it at the first listen so I left it for a while and now it pisses me of how amazing it could be, but it isn't because it was rushed.


To sum it up:
Lots of potential, bad execution and arrangment.


This is only my opinion after letting it sit for a while. If you like the song good for you, I simply can't digest it.

Up the Irons!
 
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I pretty much agree. I'm tempted to cut it into bits in Cubase or Soundforge and see if I can arrange in a way that's more to my liking. It needs somebody to save it. (Not sure that person is me though!)
 
matic22 said:
A listen to this song after a long time and it pisses me off actually... This track could be so great, but it's ruined by poor arranging...

Let me start:
Bass Intro - That should be a statement with which Steve says this is one of our best songs we have ever done seat back and enjoy the ride... It is instead played sloppy and gives me feeling that it's there just because it needs to be.

Verses - As a musician the verses are quite boring to me... 100000 hours of e minor chord pounding. I think that Steve could think of something more original here (even though I can live with that). The thing that annoys me the most is the guitar that plays the vocal line. It absolutely kills Bruce's phrasing. Just imagine adding that to ROTAM... it would create a similar effect. That guitar works great in WTWWB where the lines are not sung so rapidly, but here... it basicly kills Bruce's vocals and annoys me.

Oh oh oh oh's - This is the point where the doubling guitar works. It adds depth and the epicness of that part. Again I could do without it doubling the "I need somebody to save me".

Chorus - Strange transition into this part (they could be more adventourus with that, especially Nicko who is very reserved with his drumming on this track), otherwise good chorus, nothing wrong with that.

Instrumental bit - Strange tempo changes, they ruin the song flow for me. Again great melodies but they don't flow seemlessly. I would like to hear some drum fills and different melodies during those transitions and not just speeding up. It feels like it was put together in Cubase from different ideas and glued together. The only transition that works for me is the one before the last bit of the instrumental and then into oh oh oh's (that one is strange again).

Overall - This song suffered the most from the write and record approach. I was really hoping to get more from that song. I didn't like it at the first listen so I left it for a while and now it pisses me of how amazing it could be, but it isn't because it was rushed.


To sum it up:
Lots of potential, bad execution and arangment.


This is only my opinion after letting it sit for a while. If you like the song good for you, I simply can't digest it.

Up the Irons!
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I agree with you 100%. I friend of mine who just bought the new album, asked me why the bass intro was played so sloppy.
He said that it sounded like they just settled for the first take.

This could how been a brilliant song, but just seemed liked it was rushed.
 
What I like about this song is that apart from the bass intro/outro and the "whoooa" part, nothing is repeated in different sections of the song (although different riffs are reprised as backing for the guitar solos, which is cool). Once the vocals start after 1:28, every new part of the song has a new vocal melody. Also, several of the vocal melodies are introduced by a guitar before the vocals enter. Also cool.

Even the "whoooa" part develops throughout the song. First time, it is played by guitar only. Second time, it is sung, but the guitar introduces the "I need somebody to save me" melody, which is then sung on the third and fourth appearance of the "whoooa" motif.

What I don't like so much:

  • As stated by @matic22 - the guitar playing the vocal melody along with Bruce doesn't sound as good on this song - except, if I may add, during the "the red and the black" part, where the singing and melody is slower.
  • The afore mentioned part goes on a bit long. I hope it was because the lyrics couldn't be cut short.
  • After 7:50, when the guitar solos finish, the riffs that follow don't add much to the song. They just serve as pause music before the next guitar solo. Then we get a solo, more pause music, and then, at 9:39, we get to the best instrumental part of the song.
Finally, the main reason why I don't think this song is great (still solid, but not top drawer: There are hardly any changes in tempo or feel. Let's have a look at the other really long songs Maiden have done:

  • Empire of the Clouds: Different atmospheres, different tempos, even different time signatures.
  • Rime - plenty of changes in atmosphere. Calm mid section followed by a gradual (and bloody fantastic) build-up. Also, the part leading up to the mid section, from "There, calls the Mariner ..." represents a change from the main motif we hear for the first minutes of the song.
  • Sign of the Cross also has great contrasts in tempo and feel. The tension builds from 5:00 onwards, and again we have a slightly altered time signature, then the suspense is realeased through the up-tempo riff starting at 7:58 and two blistering solos from Dave and Janick.
  • WTWWB - again a song with proper mood changes. From the calm of the couple's living room, with only the usual doomsday TV news, through the mid part where we realize that these guys actually are serious about their paranoia, to the tragedy when they think the apocalypse is happening and take the poison.
  • The Book of Souls: The first part has a pretty standard build-up, with verse, verse, pre-chorus, chorus, repeat. The second half - instrumental breaks and solos with a couple of sung partsn in between. I feel this song has more variation than TRATB.
  • The Angel and the Gambler: The thematic predecessor of TRATB, this one is infamous for its chorus repetition - and rightfully so, if you ask me. But even this much maligned song has changes in feel and tempo.
  • Seventh Son of a Seventh Son: Almost three songs in one. An anthemic first half with an operatic Bruce on full blast, an atmospheric breakdown, and then a pace-filled instrumental finish.
In my opinion, this is a good 8-minute song stretched out to more than 13 minutes. Still good, and it will probably work really well live, but not enough variation to be a truly great "sit down and listen" experience.
 
Great read doctor. I don't share your thoughts on this song, that I rate much higher, but it is nice to have such an articulate opinion.
 
Great song, great riffs and absolutely the greatest songwriter in the history of the world. I don't care for some minor defects. Thank you Steve. If I do my job like you do it at your age I'll be really proud.
 
Eddie Wingman largely states objective facts. I guess it's up to the listerener if they minds these facts or not. That's where taste comes in.
I was planning to write a more detailed post on what my problems are with this song (not sure when), but EW already mentioned a lot.

Perhaps just this:

People who love this song say there are so many melodies. Well, here's my answer: I also like melodies, but when they are done over lengthy frameworks (chord schemes) taking one and a half minute before it changes, it's getting too long. A different melody, solo or lyric on top sounds a bit different on the surface, but I just feel that in reality, it does not. The melodies are also simple, and a bit lengthy. It does not sound exciting.

In the next video .......
....... we have this one and a half minute (more even) 6.29 - 7.14 which reminds me a lot of When the Wild Wind Blows. It has the same chord progression.

Then there is the stuff before it:
4.58 - 6.29
And after it:
7.49 - 9.09

Even though the first contains some "The Red and the Blaaaaack" lyrics, and other parts have melodies or solos, it's still all over the same chord scheme.
This is, I believe, what makes the song tedious, monotone and repetitive. In total we have around four and a half minutes of samish music, which eventually becomes one big drag.

So, I find it good until 4.58. And I like some parts from 9.09 til the end. But the 4.58 - 9.09 part: the least diverse section in the history of Iron Maiden, kills it. The problem is that it even has impact on what comes after it. There's good stuff coming after 9.09, but the interest has gone down, the patience has ended. And I even get another thought of "Another part? When does it ever end?"
 
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Dr. Eddies Wingman said:
Even the "whoooa" part develops throughout the song. First time, it is played by guitar only. Second time, it is sung, but the guitar introduces the "I need somebody to save me" melody, which is then sung on the third and fourth appearance of the "whoooa" motif.
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No need for 4 whooooa parts...in my opinion
 
That doesn't bug me much. It works as a kind of chorus. I probably wouldn't miss the last one before the "the red and the black" section if it weren't there though.
 
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