The Red And The Black

How good is The Red and the Black on a scale of 1-10?

  • Total voters
    24
MindlessPieces said:
It's almost as if bands have influences.
The Nomad influence is fine.
This is Uriah heap is fine, just a small riff at the beginning,
The Hallowed Lyrics rip off isn't fine though.
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The Nomad influence? That's not influence. That part is a rip off. I agree that the similarity between TRATB and Uriah Heep's song is fine. It's such a small part of the song. Who knows if Steve even has heard that song. When it comes to Hallowed's lyrics I couldn't care less.
 
Poto said:
Who knows if Steve even has heard that song.
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I'm pretty sure Steve has sited Heep before as a band which he is a fan of. But there's only so many riffs in this world, too. I doubt it's intentional. Nobody's called Bazza, anyway.
 
Poto said:
The Nomad influence? That's not influence. That part is a rip off. I agree that the similarity between TRATB and Uriah Heep's song is fine. It's such a small part of the song.
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The Uriah Heap part is much more closer to the original than the Nomad section is.
 
Heap's bit is one phrase repeated 4 times, TRATB has 4 phrases in the same amount of space. Although that video is edited so you don't notice this.
 
Heep brought this up on some social media when it came out. Cant remember what was said but the tone was not one of anger. Its a simple, short part. No harm, no foul.
 
The_7th_one said:
Did Steve rip off this song by Uriah Heep to make the red and the black?
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To me, this riff from Uriah Heep sounds like the riff in Fear Is The Key.

So they are the ones that ripped it off IMO.

EDIT: The instrumental part in The Nomad and the riff in Back In The Village (see Michael Schenker Group/MSG - Captain Nemo) are the only ripped off things, according to me ofc.
 
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Kalata said:
To me, this riff from Uriah Heep sounds like the riff in Fear Is The Key.
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Fear is the Key's riff goes: E - F - D - E / E - F - A (high) - G# (high) / E - F - D - E / E - F - C - B

I Hear Voices' riff goes: E - D - G (low) - A (low) and it remains the same (just like Black Sabbath's Iron Man main riff, to be clear)

The Red and the Black's riff goes: E - D - G (high) - D / E - D - G (high) - A (high) / E - D - G (high) - A (high) / G (high) - D - C - G (low)

The only thing that Fear and Voices have (loosely) in common is the rhythm pattern, which is a gallop-ish in both Uriah Heep's song and Iron Maiden's. But Red & Black's pattern is much more similar to Voices' than Voices' is to Fear's. Both are basically gallops.
So, Red & Black's second bar is almost literally Voices' riff, but the last two chords are played one octave higher.


Answer to the question is: quite probably yes, but I'm more like "he did it unintentionally". Also the riff is quite basic (and shares also similarities with Avantasia's Sign of the Cross and Gamma Ray's Avalon - but besides the fact that I can't imagine 'Arry listening to Power Metal, Kai Hansen ripping off someone else's songs isn't that surprising).
But it has to be said that it isn't the first time, for Steve. We all know the Life's a Shadow double ripoff... but have you ever heard Nightmare by Mercyful Fate?
 
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TRATB finally clicked with me.

more than a dozen listens - it's resonating now, and is a joy to listen to.

probably took the longest to crack of any songs on TBOS
 
Edington said:
. There's an excellent (albeit shortened) cover of this song by Steven Battelle, I'd give it a listen if you haven't already. He ever so slightly changes the vocal melody so it isn't following the guitar exactly, I find it works so much better.
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enjoying the heck out of Steven Battelle's cover -- as well as several of his other solo songs. Haven't listened to any of his works with LostAlone, but I already enjoy his voice and his understanding of melody, so I'll likely enjoy it.
 
Pibroch_Whistler said:
TRATB finally clicked with me.

more than a dozen listens - it's resonating now, and is a joy to listen to.

probably took the longest to crack of any songs on TBOS
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I have to admit, I never really liked the song until I saw it live. Bruce struggles a bit but the instrumental section was outstanding. I have seen 7 different tours and it still is my favourite moment from any of those shows. Maybe tied with Talisman from TFF tour.
 
i don't care that it's ripped off. i <3 both songs, this one feels like being wrapped in glittering red & black smoke. THIS is why i came back to Maiden!! "I need somebody to save ME...."i love it that much. Also <3 'Avalon' xx
 
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Forostar said:
This song has some good stuff going, especially some parts with Bruce on it. The one I like the most is a part with heavy chords and bassdrums, with cool vocals. Heavy part, kinda Priestish. The instrumental part is long, and imo it repeats certain parts too often. I really was waiting for Bruce to return. Not because I can't stand lengthy instrumental music, more because I thought it wasn't that captivating. And when he returned, it was only for a short moment. Unlike in Rime, which has Bruce picking up the song and finishing it in style. Still, don't get me wrong, before the instrumental part starts, there's a lot of Bruce. Parts which also can be called repetitive but for some reason, they got me more on the edge of my seat.

There are whoo hooo ho hooo parts which sound a little too much like the ones from The Wicker Man, also the chord progression underneath. All in all, one of the 3 or 4 least good songs on the album.

But don't worry, Brig liked the instrumental part and so did others. Someone even said "why didn't they make an instrumental song out of this one?". I didn't make notes during disc 1 and I forgot who did the solos.
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I still remember you demolishing (traumatizing experience as it was a hero song to me up to that point) Talisman 11 years ago and I was curious to see your thoughts about this one. Quite mild I was expecting much worse.

I enjoyed the song when I saw it live but that's about it. Too much drag and repetition annoying melodies and I can't stand Bruce's voice at times.
 
The messy, flamengo-ish bass intro I'm not that fond of tbh, as well most of Bruce's verse singing during most of the first half of the song, but after that, whooah, it is one of the best parts of the album. The chorus is really good, catchy and kind of sad at the same time. During a long walk lately I caught myself humming it in my head so many times...way more than on the album, talking about repetition ;)
The song really lifts of at 4'58"!...you can feel the elevation, as well as a certain swing, groove.
H's solos are so razorsharp, he tears it right open. Those two notes at 9'05"
 
I like how TRATB has synths added (near the end of the song) for the live performances - I'm not sure if they are added in the studio version too, but it would have been great if they were louder in the mix. It's a short feature (11:50-12:04), but it adds a nice dramatic flavour to the song.

Btw, if the song was recorded for the next album, the synths for sure would have been louder.

 
Harris is going to Harris. On one hand I get the criticisms of the song, but on the other it’s pretty much everything I like about Maiden. Rime also has a lot of pasted together parts but we still love it. What Rime has that this song doesn’t is a lyrical narrative and more dynamic contrasts, which really stops this from being an all time great. I love the melodies throughout the song, some of Steve’s best, also the solos are killer. But I have a hard time having an emotional connection with his musings on luck. Put me in the shoes of a prisoner about to be executed, give me vivid depictions of the unjustifiable cost of war, I’m just not feeling it here when I’m used to Harris’ songs being much more emotionally visceral. It’s more Virtual XI and not enough X Factor. 7
 
Too many verses but damn that chorus in the middle is epic
And again the ending long instrumental section is melodies over the same old chord sequences but damn if it isn't pretty damn incredible live

Also like how Steve tried something different with the whoas sections and a non repeating chorus
 
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