The Mavi Marmara incident.

I didn't think I insulted Mega personally. I just wanted to say that such attitude is feeding the governments in their wrongdoings.
I don't think I would feel happy if somebody said "Turkey is doing this and that!". But I know that I need to forget about my nationality and listen to what the other parties feel like if I truly want to find what is right. Because religion, nationality etc. usually blind, and prevent us from seeing the mistakes we might have made.
But if it is not acceptable, I will remove it immediately. No question.

Anyway... Maybe I need to get calmer. Maybe I was too furious about the situation we are in right now, because I really hate our government and its despotic tendencies. And despotic regimes benefit most from external enemies (usually another religion or nation), from a "common" enemy. Israel provided all the necessary arguments out of the blue.

One thing I want you to know, (and you too Mega :)) The fact that Israel used illegal methods will not be good for Turkey in the long run. It is feeding the hatred here. It gives a feeling of victory. People think "Yes! That's the way to achieve things!" Violent, illegal, unjust and not-well-planned measures aren't making the world any safer or more peaceful. They only make zealots stronger and more radical.

Yes it is very straightforward, simple and naive, but it is so true.
 
I think Mega does have a point in a way; (almost?) none of us live in Israel or other country in a similar situation, and none of our countries is in a real risk or "have our life on the line" as Mega put it.  While I absolutely agree with LC that security should not be used as an excuse to break laws, I also think that this point of view would be harder to justify both to oneself and others, if one's own country was at risk.  It is telling that Israel is probably the only Western democracy which uses national conscription, also for women, and the conscripts have a very real chance of actually having to fight.  I don't know of any other Western democracy where conscripts are used in peace keeping or military operations; as far as I know, they are all volunteers.  

So, though I don't accept Israel's actions, I can sort of see why the people would also support the Israeli government.  People have a natural desire for safety.  The US invasion of Afghanistan originally was quite popular/supported by the people, for the same reason.  In times of crisis or fear, most people don't care as much for laws and human rights as they care for their own safety; which is of course somewhat selfish, but that's how it is.  So I can see where both Mega is coming from, because his point of view is completely different from mine.  

Anyway, good luck with your service Mega.  I've heard some scary stories about the Israeli military service and how demanding the training is, and doing 3 years in the army is no walk in the park in any army.  But at least normal service passes faster than you think when you don't look to the future and just live for the present, trust me.   :)
 
Invader said:
I think Mega does have a point in a way; (almost?) none of us live in Israel or other country in a similar situation, and none of our countries is in a real risk or "have our life on the line" as Mega put it.  
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In a funny way I do. 40 Turkish soldiers died within the last 30 days, because of PKK ambushes. And they are threatening to use suicide bombers in big cities, starting this month.
I see Israel making the similar mistakes we did, and are doing.
 
eddiesson said:
In a funny way I do. 40 Turkish soldiers died within the last 30 days, because of PKK ambushes. And they are threatening to use suicide bombers in big cities, starting this month.
I see Israel making the similar mistakes we did, and are doing.
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I also saw that parallel, not only of the bombers but also of the oppression of a big ethnic group.

So, when I think of the Turkish government, I understand their anger, but I also must state that
"he who has butter on his head, should stay out of the sun".

Not you eddieson, we can all talk here, despite of where we come from.  :ok:
 
It was a trap, a poliltical one. The "Freedom Flotilla"'s very intention was to provoke some kid of confrontation. The ISS stated they were going to run the blockade. Yes, no one forced the IDF to board the ship and like I stated before, the troops could have used some restraint. They should have disengaged and escorted the ship to their own waters, then they would have every right under Maritime Law to board the ship. I understand the IDF troops were under physical attack, but opening fire on lesser armed adversaries is tantamount to overkill. In the heat of battle, the troops were trying to defend themselves, but they did'nt have the right to board a ship 70+ miles from their own territorial waters.
 
I checked with Admiral Ackbar and it, in fact, was a trap.

Basically, I agree with what has been said, that these guys came to put mud on Israel and ended up putting blood on them instead.  Which has not had the effect they hoped - Israel looking at their actions - and has had a much worse effect: the continued isolation of Israel from the rest of the world. As crazy as it sounds, the more the world tells Israel they are doing wrong, the less they listen, and possibly the more dangerous the situation becomes.
 
I think Mega does have a point in a way; (almost?) none of us live in Israel or other country in a similar situation, and none of our countries is in a real risk or "have our life on the line" as Mega put it.
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Some of us were in that situation. Some of us ran away from school to shelters when sirens rang. Some of us spent days in building basements, some of us haven't seen the daylight for days because snipers were around. And that same some of us think it's a complete and utter bullshit.

Israeli government are a bunch of fucking idiots. Hitler also defended "his" citizens outside "his" borders. Most of the warmonging lunatic madmen did the same. How is Israel any different? I can imagine how an average citizen of Austria-Hungary went into war thinking that he's fighting for his home and his family, he didn't know better. But in today's world of information...give me a break.

If Mega thinks that he'll fight for security of his people, he's dead wrong.
 
Well, Zare, that depends. It is entirely possible that over the next 3 years Israel could end up in a serious fight. I don't know, I feel like Israel does have a threat in Hamas. Hamas always refuses to cooperate except for expediency's sake. I still feel like the steps they have taken go too far in many cases.
 
SinisterMinisterX said:
This is absolutely unacceptable:

(The boldface is my emphasis.) Personal attacks on other forum members are not acceptable. I post this publicly as a warning to all: don't do it. The next time it happens, someone is going to get banned. You've all been warned.
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It would be more fair when there is a warning like this, to incorporate it the same time to the Rules.
Because 1) not all the members are supposed to read the thread where the warning was originally issued
and 2) after sometime a new member who won't even know the thread's /warning's existence, maybe he will be unfairly banned.
And I'm speaking generally not only about the particular warning.

SinisterMinisterX said:
Beyond that ... I find it interesting to see people posting about Israel in the same hateful tones which were directed at the US so often in the Bush Jr. years. I recall well how that ticked me off, as an American. I didn't support Bush, but I got royally pissed off when someone insulted my entire country (including me!) because of government actions.
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Obama is galaxies far better than Bush Jr. that's clear.

Regarding Palestine issue, he tries to push Israel, and the world understands and respects that.
BUT : As Israel don't seem to care too much about this and continues to do the same things, as during Bush era, Obama looses too much face
and this, finally, can be equally or even more harmful for the States.

Two examples :
1) The 1,600 new homes in Ramat Shlomo case -which has been seen by the world as almost a ridiculization of Joe Biden & Obama administation  
2) Joe Biden Jr. (again) statement about the Mavi Marmara incident : You can argue whether Israel should have dropped people onto that ship or not and the -- but the truth of the matter is, Israel has a right to know...whether or not arms are being smuggled in
 
Forostar said:
I also saw that parallel, not only of the bombers but also of the oppression of a big ethnic group.
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Exactly.

Forostar said:
So, when I think of the Turkish government, I understand their anger, (...)
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But you would miss a big part of the picture if you think that the problem is only the government's anger (Whether a government should be angry or not is another thing. I will talk about that later).
If I agreed with this statement as a Turkish citizen, I would choose the easy path by putting all the blame on my government and ignore the role of public and what me and people like me can do.

Actually the government was about to make some timid steps towards solution, but it made a huge strategic mistake (among MANY tactical ones) : The government didn't try to convince the public, significant part of which is enraged as a result of 30 years of fighting and 40.000 casualties. It didn't explain why this problem needs to be resolved, and why Turkish population should leave the anger aside. It didn't explain what the long term gains would be if Turkey made some counterintuitive moves, and stopped acting on revenge.
As you may have guessed, the opposing political parties did not miss the opportunity to exploit that anger that was not taken care of. Instead of criticizing the government because of the shortcomings it had in its solutions and the mistakes in its tactics, they refused everything altogether and provoked the public. Eventually public opinion prevented the government from making any progress, and now we are back to point zero, or even worse.

The government is not a body that is independent from the public. They couldn't last in a legitimate way if they didn't have a considerable support. We put so much blame on politicians. True, they are not innocent, so aren't we. (excluding myself because I am among those who think that the anger should put aside / including me because I leave it at that, and don't do anything about it and wait for people to think about me... which can take an eternity)




PS: Anger is an extreme feeling. it is hard to reach the extremes as the population gets larger. (Central Limit Theorem)

A government shouldn't be angry because it is not an individual capable of feeling, but a mechanism that represents a big number of people... unless a figure with autocratic tendencies is running the state. Such a person tend to think that he IS the state like a king, and that he symbolizes the notion of that country, rather than a heterogeneous public ("I am Turkey and I symbolize it", rather than "I am the president of all the turkish citizens with the different opinions/origins/ideals, and I serve them all").

Only such a "government" can act on emotions be angry, as "he" is the embodiment of that country; his feelings are the feelings of that country. You can't expect him to use logic, respect human rights and democracy that it takes to govern a large population. (an election alone is not a democracy)

It is not a coincidence that such behavior is expected when all the public is united against a common enemy (which is a common trait of fascist regimes and armies). If everybody thinks the same, hate the same thing and break the Central Limit Theorem, that ruler feels entitled to channel that hatred through government body (even if its against the laws of that country). He will use that hatred to disrespect the laws and abolish any institution or neutralize any individuals that thinks otherwise anyway.
 
Will-I-Am said:
2) Joe Biden Jr. (again) statement about the Mavi Marmara incident : You can argue whether Israel should have dropped people onto that ship or not and the -- but the truth of the matter is, Israel has a right to know...whether or not arms are being smuggled in
Click to expand...

Absolutely. Israel has the right to stop and search ships within its 12 mile limit. I have no problem with that. It's international waters. All they had to do was wait. That's my biggest beef with this whole thing - they just had to wait.
 
The Ramat Shlomo case was an epic fail though! Sometimes I think that Obama shouldn't play the tough against Israel. Yet who knows...
I was sad to see how Netanyahu mocked him in front of the eyes of the whole world.

Also I think there's a third incident, something about US' ambassador, or even Biden when he went in Israel,
something like they didn't offer him a chair to seat or something, are you aware of it ??
 
eddiesson said:
Exactly.

But you would miss a big part of the picture if you think that the problem is only the government's anger...
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Eh, you ranted a bit too long on that aspect, for my sense at least.
I only focussed on the government because of the rest of my sentence. The "butter on the head"-part.

I understand that more people are angry.
 
I notice that you criticize your government but at the same time you know who elected them, and who lives around you. That's it?

At least I think I notice a healthy critical view on your own people.
 
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