The Mavi Marmara incident.

...They got beat up for several minutes and begged for permission to fire untill one was given to them.
I think that's more restraint then most armies have.

Yax, I'm sorry I didn't respond to your claims. If I'll come back here to further discuss these matters, I'll be sure to resopnd to your messages first.

Oh, Loose:
I agree, what we did was illegel. There you have it.
Israel should acknowledge that publicly, but we should definitely not apologize for how we handeld the situation. I think the troops should get a medal for it.
 
Mega - if an international investigation shows that Israel's troops used all possible measures to avoid shooting? I will agree with you. At this point, I am taking everything with a proverbial grain of salt. But I appreciate the admittance that it was illegal.
 
LooseCannon said:
I think the discussion needs to step back from the legality of what's going on with Gaza.
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I don't know. If we remove the reason why the boat went to Gaza, it'll be harder to understand why the people on the boat did not listen to the Israeli soldiers. If this happened in Israeli waters (e.g. the next ship could be attacked in Israeli waters), the world probably would have acted as shocked as now.

Disproportional violence is simply not acceptable, wherever it happens.

Derek Smalls said:
but I think the troops could have used some restraint.
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Ditto.
 
I don't understand much about international waters laws, but from what I understand from talking to other people we had a legal precedent(Not sure if that's what I mean, I can't translate it properly) for boarding their ship, because we knew they were going to break the quarantine.

Anyway, this entire thing can only be solved once it's proven that what I said is true, with said international investigation, so I don't see a point in me saying it happened and you saying it didn't.
 
I am familiar with marine law, and I can tell you the precedent they are citing is very flimsy at best. The world's leading maritime and international law expert have said Israel doesn't have a leg to stand on.

Forostar said:
I don't know. If we remove the reason why the boat went to Gaza, it'll be harder to understand why the people on the boat did not listen to the Israeli soldiers. If this happened in Israeli waters (e.g. the next ship could be attacked in Israeli waters), the world probably would have acted as shocked as now.
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While I agree with you about disproportionate violence, there is a difference between "not listening" and "attacking". The video does show someone attacking an Israeli soldier with a metal bar - a lethal instrument. If this was the response to the soldiers in general, and they shot back, it would be self defense….in Israeli waters. In international waters, those who are attacking the borders are repelling invaders, and have every right to use lethal action.
 
Derek Smalls said:
Maybe the Israelis should choose to intercept ships in their own waters....strategic blunder.
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No, cause it would be a day, so easier for photos to be taken and the operation to be well documented.
So from Israel's side it was calculated I believe. I only don't know if it was calculated from the other side as well
or simply the ship was following her normal schedule.
 
Oh, the organization involved in this DEFINITELY wanted to provoke Israel. The ship was not on a "usual route", they were sailing towards a blockaded port in Gaza. They got pretty much exactly what they wanted from Israel in terms of poor publicity for the country; too much in terms of violence.
 
So now you believe they weren't peace activists?
The only thing now is to prove our soldiers got attacked first.
 
LooseCannon said:
Oh, the organization involved in this DEFINITELY wanted to provoke Israel. The ship was not on a "usual route", they were sailing towards a blockaded port in Gaza. They got pretty much exactly what they wanted from Israel in terms of poor publicity for the country; too much in terms of violence.
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It is obvious that this was more of a publicity thing than a real attempt to get supplies to Gaza's civilians. They must have known that the Israelis would try to stop them. There were three Norwegians in the convoy, and one of them has told that they had to sign a statement that they would not use violence if they were stopped. Some obviously did - and they may have had the right to do so, considering the ship was in international waters. Still, I think those who took the initiative almost wanted this to end in violence, just for the sake of giving Israel bad PR.

However, what I do not understand is: How come the Israelis were not prepared to deal with this convoy in a way that would not cause the use of lethal force? I mean, they are supposed to have effective intelligence. They must have known that the activists were not armed with guns and cannons, but that they might very well use what they had at hand to resist boarding. They must have known that any loss of life would make them look extremely bad. So, why?

I start to think the leaders of the Israeli military think that their reputation can't get much worse anyway, so they will choose the solution that is better from a military point of view - even if this is a very bad solution from a political point of view.

The consequences for them are not good: Turkey, with whom they have had better relations than with any other country in the region, are now very pissed at them. The blockade of Gaza has got a lot more attention, and they will be under a lot more pressure from the international community.

It seems we are a long way away from the progress that was going on before the 2nd intifada.
 
Eddies Wingman said:
The consequences for them are not good: Turkey, with whom they have had better relations than with any other country in the region, are now very pissed at them. The blockade of Gaza has got a lot more attention, and they will be under a lot more pressure from the international community.

It seems we are a long way away from the progress that was going on before the 2nd intifada.
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Turkey is also a member of NATO. If they interpret this as an act of war, it could invoke the NATO treaty (if any memeber is attacked, all NATO members can repsond as if attacked). This could be a very bad thing.
 
Eddies Wingman said:
However, what I do not understand is: How come the Israelis were not prepared to deal with this convoy in a way that would not cause the use of lethal force? I mean, they are supposed to have effective intelligence. They must have known that the activists were not armed with guns and cannons, but that they might very well use what they had at hand to resist boarding. They must have known that any loss of life would make them look extremely bad. So, why?
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This is my question. If Israel had just arrested these blokes in their waters, subdued violent protestors with tasers, rubber bullets, etc - nobody would have said much. This sort of response was exactly what the group wanted - to smear Israel. It is boggling to me that they don't have one person with a political bone in their body…

Speaking of, it seems Israel will not allow an international investigation:

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177188
 
I read the Netanyahu's speech about the subject, and you know what? I agree.
The world can speak very well when it's not it's life in the line, but if they were in the same situation, they wouldn't be so loving.
 
What are you talking about? Think of the many hundreds of peacekeepers killed obeying restrictive UN rules of engagement in areas like Cyprus, Bosnia, and Rwanda. This sort of justification was supposed to have gone out with WW2, the whole "we act to protect us" bullcrap. Yes, I get that Israel has lives to protect. I'm cool with that. I appreciate that. But it doesn't justify illegal action. Part of the sacrifice we are supposed to make as developed, Western nation is the notion that obeying certain ideals is worth expending lives, such as the notion of the rule of law - especially international law.
 
I thought we agreed that beurocracy wasn't the issue here.
Yeah, we fell right into their traps when we did it in international waters. That's our only fault in this matter, and I think that what they tried(and somewhat succeded) to do was far worse.
 
Not…..really. I think that they bear some responsibility for the deaths because they were the ones who planned to break a blockade. That is not safe. My point was that this isn't about the Gaza doomahickey, this is about one incident that Israel handled poorly. Everything they have said since then is, to me, grandstanding. Throwing good money after bad. Not wanting to admit they fucked up.
 
I'd hate to sound like a broken record, but I believe Israels' big mistake was not waiting to make the raid until they were in itheir own waters. And I have to agree that the whole Flotilla was to prevoke this kind of response from Israel...they took the bait and fell into the political trap that was set.
 
Derek Smalls said:
I'd hate to sound like a broken record, but I believe Israels' big mistake was not waiting to make the raid until they were in itheir own waters. And I have to agree that the whole Flotilla was to prevoke this kind of response from Israel...they took the bait and fell into the political trap that was set.
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Trap? As far as I can see, nobody truly provoked or lured Israeli navy into international waters. That was the first biggest melee ship since ancient times I guess... armed with knives and clubs!
In addition, Israel knew that this ship was on its way for at least a week. Everybody was talking about it in Turkey. We were expecting a huge trouble.

As a Turkish citizen, I now hate Israel for handling this situation so abysmally.
Why? Because those people in the ship are welcomed as messiahs. Our autocratic conservationist government now enjoys the biggest publicity ever, a huge national and international support... and a victory gently handed to them in a golden plate, by Israel! If Israel had waited for the ship until it was within 12 miles from the mainland, and had incapacitated people on the ship rather than killing them, our opportunistic government would be in a huge trouble. If Israel was "at least" respecting international laws (in its inhumane actions in Gaza) the situation would be the opposite. Our prime-minister is now enjoying a double victory. A perfect victory for all the undercover fundamentalists, so perfect that they couldn't imagine it in their wildest dreams. Thanks! :down:

Israel's neo-con politics is making the world a worse place, because it is feeding the hatred, offering fundamentalists stronger arguments, and justifying the enmity towards itself.

Just open your eyes. Open your eyes and be smart. Yes you Mega. People like you, and your government's frenzy, radical and extreme ways are in fact, the creator your troubles. And ours. And everybody elses.
 
This is absolutely unacceptable:

eddiesson said:
Just open your eyes. Open your eyes and be smart. Yes you Mega. People like you, and your government's frenzy, radical and extreme ways are in fact, the creator your troubles. And ours. And everybody elses.
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(The boldface is my emphasis.) Personal attacks on other forum members are not acceptable. I post this publicly as a warning to all: don't do it. The next time it happens, someone is going to get banned. You've all been warned.

If you have legit criticisms of Israel, fine. But Mega is not part of Israel's decision-making progress. He bears no responsibility for what the Israeli military does. Even after he enlists, he'll still be a soldier following orders.

Beyond that ... I find it interesting to see people posting about Israel in the same hateful tones which were directed at the US so often in the Bush Jr. years. I recall well how that ticked me off, as an American. I didn't support Bush, but I got royally pissed off when someone insulted my entire country (including me!) because of government actions.

Let's keep this discussion civil, please.
 
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