The Mavi Marmara incident.
- Thread starter Mega
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They weren't terrorists, dude. Those people were idiots, most likely, but they didn't have bombs, etc. Calling them terrorists is a terrible misnomer. It's the sort of thing the rest of the world goes "WTF" to.
The problem with the people of Gaza getting supplies from Israel is that the people of Gaza have no free will to get the supplies they want or do what they want with them. This is not only Israel's fault, because Hamas are dicks and they are terrorists and they cause a lot of the trouble that comes back and bites all of Gaza in the ass. I have demonstrated previously that Hamas cannot be trusted, and that distrust is the reason for the blockade. I get it. I'm not entirely against that. I just think that when Israel does really, really stupid stuff and tries to justify it by saying that the people they killed had links to Al Qaeda, it is not helping their case.
Really - and I've said this before - I think that Israel should probably keep the status quo now, and then work with Fatah to create a Palestinian state in the West Bank. Then Fatah can help with the Gaza Strip. But that is moving so slowly.
The problem with the people of Gaza getting supplies from Israel is that the people of Gaza have no free will to get the supplies they want or do what they want with them. This is not only Israel's fault, because Hamas are dicks and they are terrorists and they cause a lot of the trouble that comes back and bites all of Gaza in the ass. I have demonstrated previously that Hamas cannot be trusted, and that distrust is the reason for the blockade. I get it. I'm not entirely against that. I just think that when Israel does really, really stupid stuff and tries to justify it by saying that the people they killed had links to Al Qaeda, it is not helping their case.
Really - and I've said this before - I think that Israel should probably keep the status quo now, and then work with Fatah to create a Palestinian state in the West Bank. Then Fatah can help with the Gaza Strip. But that is moving so slowly.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Eddies Wingman said:
No. That's asking for trouble. When Kosovo was shot to ruin, and when the Serbs were forced to leave, they were not asked to hang around while others were repairing their buildings and infrastructure. When Georgia was shot to ruin, they also didn't invite the Russians to come back and watch while people rebuilt the country.
It's not hard to imagine that a lot of Palestinian people are very afraid of Israeli soldiers. They would live in fear.
If such a force is needed, then rather United Nations or at least an international mission, e.g. EU together with USA or something.
pilau
Nomad
eddiesson said:
Excuse me? This is so out of proportions and context that I am not even going to answer that. You don't even live here, how can I take these things from seriously? Go and discuss your conspiracy theories somewhere else.
I am sorry I entered this discussion. I shouldn't have done that as I have no energy to spare on this anymore. As I said I am not so interested in politics anyway but I am very enraged at the behavior of the people involved in the flotilla and at the incident itself. Just thinking of this incident makes me angry because Israel was abused and that makes me bitter. I have been discussing and arguing on this subject for the past two weeks and I really can't be bothered to continue with this. Sorry if I disappoint anybody, I just don't have the energy to invest in this mishap anymore.
Moving on, Loosy, I agree with everything you said. You hold an opinion very similar to my own.
I would like to add some thing I have found on the internet this morning and share it with you so those of you who don't live here will add another piece to their puzzle:
By the way, Foro, I agree with you also, and apart from what you say, it is not beneficial for Israel to occupy the strip again in any way. Talking about international opinion, financial cost (operating the army inside Gaza does cost a tad more than NOT operating it), Palestinians developing renounced hatred towards Israel and public opinion inside Israel. This would definitely cause a terrible rift within Israeli citizens - right-wing Jewish Israelis on one side and left-wing Jews and Arab Israelis on the other.
My opinion is that the long-term solution for Gaza lies in creating prosperity in the West Bank. It's that simple. But it relies on Fatah wishing to become legitimate partners with Israel so that they can form the first true Palestinian national government.
pilau
Nomad
The Fatah organization said (as far as I am aware, something in the form of) that as long as Israel will leave the west bank they will not treat it as their enemy. Apart of that, Fatah is a left-wing organization. You can see it obviously comparing the way they handle their part of administration in the west bank comparing to how Hamas is running Gaza Strip to the ground. They are also part of the PLO which is a much more willing partner for peace then Hamas and Hizbolla, so I hope that what Fatah are presenting is not a cover story.
I do want to believe that Fatah will be able to sign a peace treaty with Israel in the coming 10-15 years (consider all the operative, administrative and other -ives that must be taken into account for a legal state to arise in the West Bank alongside Israel), however, with the pace things are taking right now, I think that as it always has been the conflict is far from finish.
I do want to believe that Fatah will be able to sign a peace treaty with Israel in the coming 10-15 years (consider all the operative, administrative and other -ives that must be taken into account for a legal state to arise in the West Bank alongside Israel), however, with the pace things are taking right now, I think that as it always has been the conflict is far from finish.
I know. And I don't blame Israel's defensive stance. I wish they would try to be more proactive, but it is always very...controversial inside Israel to do so.
pilau said:
Admit it, the main reason why you claim you don't take me seriously is that my opinion is not in line with yours. Not that it is because i don't live there. I don't think Foro or LC lives nearer to middle east than I do. let's be frank.
pilau said:
Well, I didn't add anything, except the USA-Taliban comparison. I just cited an article, not from an obscure arabic newspaper but from WSJ. (and I stress, they are not known for their opposition against Israel).
I think that any state is capable of doing things like these, not because they are demonic in nature, but they miscalculate the results of their actions while protecting their people and country. I didn't say that Israel controls and makes Hamas attack its territory. But it is impossible for me to believe that, Israel never tried to use any Palestinian organization to weaken Fatah during 90's. No state on earth warring with another would miss that opportunity. That is just pure naivete.
Who would think that USA would have to fight the Afghan freedom fighters it once backed? Strange world, isn't it?
pilau said:
In your first post you said that you were trying to be as objective as possible. Well, you weren't obviously. I respect honesty, later than never.
pilau
Nomad
Of course I admit it, what you wrote in that post sound to me way to far-fetched. Just so you know, I like conspiracy theories, (every heard of Zeitgeist?), however the tone of your post sounded like you just try to make things up and put more blames on Israel then it deserves.eddiesson said:
[/quote]
Now that you explain yourself this way I understand what you meant. I agree now, there is actually a good possibility that this might have happened in the past, however I can't imagine a terror organization secretly shaking hands with Israel leadership to bring down another menacing organization. Could be, though. I don't know the nature of your source - perhaps they are fond of conspiracy theories and they don't really care whether this information is even true, they just publish it for the sake of it being one.eddiesson said:
I was being objective, because before I found out what really happened on this flotilla I didn't really care. When I realized that there's a very bad and almost unanimous opinion towards Israel coming from all around the world, then I started investigating this. At the end, when I found out the answers, then I started getting angry and now every time I hear something new on this subject I feel bad about it. For example, yesterday I saw Turkish activists lying in an interview that will be probably broadcast all around the world without even blinking, with a sly smile on their faces - I am sorry, that enrages me.eddiesson said:
And I believe that. I mean, I think the whole purpose of the flotilla was to smear Israel. Why wouldn't they play it up more?
Dr. Eddies Wingman
Brighter than thousand_suns
Forostar said:
Well, I think quite many live in fear in Gaza today as well. Fear of Hamas, that is. Remember, those aren't just firing rockets at Israel. The are also terrorizing their own. I feel sorry for those Palestinians who want to live in freedom (and at peace with Israel) and have a militant jihadist group to rule over them.
An international force would probably be better for the civilians of Gaza, but there are two major problems with that:
- Would Israel trust those forces to keep the militant resistance down?
- Would Hamas leave those forces alone, or attack them frequently?
I'm afraid an international force, unless it was an overwhelming one, would just end up as bystanders to blood spill between the IDF and Hamas.
pilau
Nomad
I'm glad you said that. I am glad you see the truth. And of course, they need to keep the going on, they can't back away from their position, otherwise their cover story will break apart.LooseCannon said:
Eddies Wingman said:
I think this is also a good idea, however I know that the Israeli government is concerned with UNIFIL in southern Lebanon. Simply for the fact they take quite a passive approach, and for example they don't take responsibility for Hezbollah stationing near UNIFIL posts to fire rockets into Israel, nor do they take responsibility for people crossing the border into Israel.
You must take into account also public opinion here in Israel, which I think will be mostly negative towards an international force between Gaza and Israel, simply because I don't think Israelis will trust the UN.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Eddies Wingman said:
This is exactly the problem. At the moment the Israeli government doesn't trust anything and anyone. That's why they need to change first. A bit less paranoia, and a bit more concern for people inside Gaza would be very helpful.
Eddies Wingman said:
Something should be tried, I'm afraid..
I think eddiesson judges this conflict very well. I understand what he says. He is very well informed, and knows a lot about it, both perspectives. I know that because I also follow the subject as well as I can. I find him careful with his information and formulation, and I try to do that as well.
Pilau, you accuse activists of being liars. May I follow your investigation which led to this conclusion? Regardless if your accusation is correct or not, I am curious how an Israeli citizen is doing that.
Dr. Eddies Wingman
Brighter than thousand_suns
Forostar said:
Just my five cents: He was speaking of some specific activists he saw on TV. And that some of the activists are liars is clear. For example, some have said the Israeli soldiers started shooting peaceful activists even before they had landed on the ships. Of course some will lie.
In war, truth is the first casualty.
It would be nice to see an international peacekeeping force in Gaza, primarily composed of Islamic nations - Turkey, Egypt, Jordan, Indonesia, etc. But it is unlikely to happen now.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
"From now on, we will not let these ships to be attacked by Israel, as what happened with the Freedom Flotilla,"...
Turkey 'to escort Gaza aid ships' amid row with Israel
Well, one could wait for this. And actually, I can feel why Turkey is hurt, and agree with the analysis in the sideline of the article:
"Turkey's diplomatic offensive against Israel has scarcely let up since the release a week ago of the UN report on last year's Gaza flotilla incident.
The Turkish government feels it was the loser in the UN report. It stated many times that Israel acted illegally in boarding the flotilla in international waters.
The UN report found otherwise. And while it criticised as excessive the use of force by Israeli troops, it did not give the ringing condemnation of the killing of nine Turkish activists that the government had hoped for. Turkey's responses since then have in part been driven by wounded national pride. ..."
Turkey 'to escort Gaza aid ships' amid row with Israel
Well, one could wait for this. And actually, I can feel why Turkey is hurt, and agree with the analysis in the sideline of the article:
"Turkey's diplomatic offensive against Israel has scarcely let up since the release a week ago of the UN report on last year's Gaza flotilla incident.
The Turkish government feels it was the loser in the UN report. It stated many times that Israel acted illegally in boarding the flotilla in international waters.
The UN report found otherwise. And while it criticised as excessive the use of force by Israeli troops, it did not give the ringing condemnation of the killing of nine Turkish activists that the government had hoped for. Turkey's responses since then have in part been driven by wounded national pride. ..."
The Flash
Dennis Wilcock did 9/11
That's overreacting. I can understand why the government is offended, but that's not the right thing to do about this situation. Turkey buy weapons, warcrafts and other stuff from Israel, avoiding this is nonsense. Israel doesn't send the herons (the aircraft Turkey uses against PKK terrorists) for now (saying servicing isn't done yet). If it's true anyway, if the "cross" against them continues, that will give Israel the opportunity to control Turkey's devices. For example, switching off the engine of an aircraft while it's flying. I don't support Erdogan's policies, he and his party is a treat to the country's future, but this thread is not about him whatsoever.
We are hurt, people died. But that's not the right way to act. International relations are not as easy as pie.
We are hurt, people died. But that's not the right way to act. International relations are not as easy as pie.