The Mavi Marmara incident.

OK, I have done some research. Mega, I agree the soldiers went in prepared for non-lethal action. However, they did so in international waters. That gives the people onboard the right to repel borders. That's maritime law. That's why we can't do anything to the Somali pirates we capture, for instance - because they have every right to be out there, sailing about, however they wish.

Until you're in that 12 mile limit, you can do anything you want and approach anywhere.
 
I thought you all agreed that the soldiers eventually used their hand guns, what more is there to show? The actual shooting? We know that part, what matters is who attacked first.
What you can see in the video, in plain sight:
1: They attacked the soldiers ruthlessly as soon as they landed on the ship.
2: the used various cold weapond, such as metal rods and knives, along with anything else they could get their hands on.
These are facts, gentlemen. Our soldiers only got their hand guns out as an act of self defence, and thank god for that. One of the soldiers got beat up so bad, they broke his helmet, and he's in critical condition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NcWY7DhDNk
I believe this sums up what I think of the world's reaction nicely.

EDIT: LooseCannon:
Yeah, I know that. I know that we have a really bad situation on our hands when it comes to the law. But you have to understand that we have learned from past mistakes. We have to make sure that  even the most innocent looking, such as so called peace activists aren't out there to hurt us.
I don't know exactly how the army knew these guys were up to no good, but as it turned out they were right. Even if I think badly about several aspects of our army, I trust it completely.
 
I don't see the reason why to stop a human aid, not to say that they did it in international waters.
If international community does not take some serious measurements against Israel, these kind of things will continue to happen.

@Mega : Come on man, it's another David vs Goliath story : Knives & metal rods against a war vessel ? And how the activists were killed ? Someone shot them, right ??
 
What would you do if tens of people came at you friends with metal rods, give them pork chops?

I really think I shouldn't be saying this, but international laws don't really hold up that well here.
If we obay every single one of them, we will all be dead within months.

The world can be neutral all they want, but history shows us that the big guns only point to the right side when the other side is no more.
 
Mega said:
I thought you all agreed that the soldiers eventually used their hand guns, what more is there to show? The actual shooting? We know that part, what matters is who attacked first.
What you can see in the video, in plain sight:
1: They attacked the soldiers ruthlessly as soon as they landed on the ship.
2: the used various cold weapond, such as metal rods and knives, along with anything else they could get their hands on.
These are facts, gentlemen. Our soldiers only got their hand guns out as an act of self defence, and thank god for that. One of the soldiers got beat up so bad, they broke his helmet, and he's in critical condition.
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I thought you just agreed that we don't know that's what happened? That's not cold facts at all. That's what officials say but they are yet to present any evidence to confirm it. I repeat; We have only seen short footage only showing the activists, and it did not show what happened when they boarded the ship, it shows what happened after, when they attacked/defended themselves.

Mega said:
The war is not OFFICIAL, but it's there allright.

About your second point: I guess I can't say anything about that. What I see are soldiers being attacked, but maybe it's open for debate.
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The war is not official so you can not board a ship when it's in international waters, period. It's a crime. Declare war then it's another thing but if Israel doesn't then they have to play by the rules.

Secondly:  
Mega said:
We are in a position where we have to defend ourselves on a daily basis.
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The Palestines could very well say the same thing. Israel and Palestina shares the blame equally when it comes to the aggressions.

Thirdly, knives and axes are tools (fire axes are mandatory on ships btw). If you are talking about firearms then... I don't think anybody in that convoy would be stupid enough to ship rifles with the kind of media attention it had already gotten prior to departure. It would've been madness. And again, it's no proof just to claim weapons were found when so little information is given out to the media etc. I would've been equally suspicious had it regarded say, India and Pakistan (they aren't that fond of eachother either).
 
Mega, here's the problem with that: there are other methods they could have been equipped with. Tasers, tear gas, etc. Or they could have just got off the boat. The fact is that they attacked a boat in international waters…if they fight back, that's their right. The passengers did nothing wrong. The people who were wrong were the Israelis, who attacked a boat illegally.

I'm not saying that the soldiers who got hurt deserved to. Goodness, I'd never think that. But if I'm bobbing along in the Atlantic, and the Dutch navy shows up and tries to take my boat, I am allowed to fight back, just as these folk were. That's what makes it an act of aggression in my opinion - the boarding.

Put this situation inside Israel's 12 mile limit, and I would agree more that the soldiers were defending themselves. But in this case, because they are legally the aggressors - they were initiating the attack. The people on the ship were defending themselves, by strict legal definition.

(The situation of why Israel would deny aid to Gaza is an entirely different story, I think.)
 
LooseCannon said:
Mega, here's the problem with that: there are other methods they could have been equipped with. Tasers, tear gas, etc. Or they could have just got off the boat. The fact is that they attacked a boat in international waters…if they fight back, that's their right. The passengers did nothing wrong. The people who were wrong were the Israelis, who attacked a boat illegally.

I'm not saying that the soldiers who got hurt deserved to. Goodness, I'd never think that. But if I'm bobbing along in the Atlantic, and the Dutch navy shows up and tries to take my boat, I am allowed to fight back, just as these folk were. That's what makes it an act of aggression in my opinion - the boarding.

Put this situation inside Israel's 12 mile limit, and I would agree more that the soldiers were defending themselves. But in this case, because they are legally the aggressors - they were initiating the attack. The people on the ship were defending themselves, by strict legal definition.

(The situation of why Israel would deny aid to Gaza is an entirely different story, I think.)
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Sums up what I want to say pretty nicely.

Might I also point out that the legality of the quarantine is questioned  by a lot of people.
 
You keep forgetting Mega, that you've approached them with a war ship. How friendly and it peace can be someone that approach you with a gun ??

Ok, I understand, you do your military service and there is a lot of brainwashing there.
Sometimes when I remember how I've acted during that period I feel sick... I was not myself Mega, and certainly I didn't serve in such a hard army.
Also don't forget that the media in your country create /outgrow this terror feeling* most Israelis have

I've been in Israel sometimes, it's not so bad... No, better than that, it's awesome. I didn't feel any danger. Not a single time.
________
*just take a look in some titles (from the 2nd you tube link you provided) :
Demonstrators Use Violence Against Israeli Navy Soldiers Attempting to Board Ship
"Peace Activists" Use Violence Against Israeli Navy Soldiers
Footage from the Mavi Marmara Including Injured Soldiers and Items Found On Board
 
I can't reply to all of you by myself, so I'll just try to sum up everything.

I did some more research.
The boats made an open statement about aiding gaza. Gaza is in our territory, so we are allowed to prevent this from happening. The fact that we made our move in the night, before they made it into our waters was wise, and saying that it's illegal is nonsense.
About the war status: We were recetnly in a war against them. there were alot more of these wars. We get rockets fired at us on an almost daily basis, and I can prove that if you really want to make me search such things in english. Our caution is justified.
The reason you felt safe is because, Will, is because:
A: The army does it's job.
B: You were prorbably in one of the central areas, I'm talking about citys close to the gaza boarder.

Another thing I learned is this: The turkish organization behind the flotilla is a muslim orgianization that supports not only the Hamas and Hizballa, but used to support El qaeda. You know, of Bin laden's fame.

We told them that they can dock in Israel, and we will ship what is appropriate to gaza, but they refused.
Every supply that ship had is being shipped to gaza on a daily basis, there is no humanitarian crisis in gaza.
What you press tels you is simply not true, and I'm sorry that you think it is.

The palestiniens aren't the little bunnies you make of them guys. Open your eyes to the truth.
 
Mega said:
I can't reply to all of you by myself, so I'll just try to sum up everything.

I did some more research.
The boats made an open statement about aiding gaza. Gaza is in our territory, so we are allowed to prevent this from happening. The fact that we made our move in the night, before they made it into our waters was wise, and saying that it's illegal is nonsense.
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Just because you say it isn't illegal doesn't make it so. UN begs to differ. Israel is part of the UN and has therefore undertaken to follow its laws. It was illegal by UN laws, which Israel is obligated to follow, that's just how it is.

Mega said:
The palestiniens aren't the little bunnies you make of them guys. Open your eyes to the truth.
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Never said they were, I've been very specific several times that Israel and Palestina shares the blame equally.

Mega said:
I can't reply to all of you by myself, so I'll just try to sum up everything.

I did some more research.
The boats made an open statement about aiding gaza. Gaza is in our territory, so we are allowed to prevent this from happening.
Click to expand...
Gaza was given to you by the UN, where Palestinians prior to it resided (hell, they lived all over Israel). I reckon you'd be pretty upset too if the UN gave Israel to the Italians. I'm not talking about if it was right or not but simply saying how anyone whose land was taken away from them would feel - Yes, I am aware that Israelis lived there before and then moved. Doesn't change the fact that the Palestinians have been robbed of what used to be their territory (again, not arguing whether it was right or wrong, merely stating how it is).

Mega said:
About the war status: We were recetnly in a war against them. there were alot more of these wars. We get rockets fired at us on an almost daily basis, and I can prove that if you really want to make me search such things in english. Our caution is justified..
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The Palestinians could very well say the same thing. Both Israel and Palestina suffers from destuction brought upon by the rivaling nation (Yes, Nation. Israel has pretty much acknowledged Palestina as a nation, however never stated that they have the right to Israel)

Mega said:
Every supply that ship had is being shipped to gaza on a daily basis, there is no humanitarian crisis in gaza.
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That's word against word.
 
Mega, sorry. I don't buy the argument that it's not illegal if Israel says it's not. You are allowed to stop ships in your 12 mile limit. That's it. All the military had to do was wait. As Yax said, Israel is part of the treaties that establish international waters, and they violated them. It may have made good military sense to attack then, but it was extremely bad political sense.  You're combining the two.

As for the discussion that the organization this is may have supported Al Qaeda…so what? That's an appeal to emotion, not a smart, logical argument.
 
Mega said:
What you press tels you is simply not true
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There was no press on board. It's going to be the story of the Israeli military vs the story of the hundreds of people present on the ship.

Mega said:
, and I'm sorry that you think it is.
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Well, I understand that you prefer to believe your own press. And I guess you find it hard to see through the propaganda you live in, and the stories you were brought up with. You're young, I am not going to blame you for that. But I do feel sorry for you if you'll never going to learn the story of the other side in the conflict.
If you don't want to listen to that story, you'll not understand why humanitarian aid is needed. Thus you'll not understand why this boat was sent. Thus you'll not understand why this boat defied the warnings of the Israeli military. Patience isn't everlasting, you know. It's time to act, to help these isolated people.

Egypt has opened its borders today. They should have done that longer ago, but today I am glad that they finally did it. Why? To let in the aid. The medicines, the goods, etc.

Please understand that many of us believe in equality, and have faith in other press (besides the Israeli).
 
Loose, I think that it's not an appeal to emotion, I think it means that the entire thing was just an attempt to piss us off. Also, This could've been alot worse if we waited till the next day to do the same thing, many more lives could've been lost because the people on the ship would've been ready for us.
There could've been weapons on that boat, we had to stop it. If wasn't in the equation, only when.

Foro, I think I'm open minded, really. I doubted most of what I believed in my time, and what I found out to be wrong I abandond. In this matter I'm certain that I'm right. Even though we are shipping supplies to gaza, we agreed to take the supplies from their ships and transport it ourselves, so they won't break the quarentine, but the fact that they refused proved that the only thing on their mind was provocating us.

I think I'll retire for now. It's a lost cause, and it's only causing frustration for all of us.
Feel free to continue the discussion.
 
Huh what? I thought I made a pretty good statemnt.

Ok, about your arguemnt for taking the land:

Imagine having a place in your country fire rockets at other places in your country.
I don't think your government would think about the humanitarian implications of preventing this situation.
And we do, so that's a point for us. I'm also not saying that we are completely innocent, not at all, but I think that the entire blame os on the palestiniens. Their terror organizations are out there to kille us all, they don't really care about international laws, and I don't see you criticizing them.
 
For me, this isn't about Gaza. It is about legality. If you strike someone in international waters you are breaking the law. Period. Yes, it may have been safer (it wouldn't have been), but that's the sacrifice you have to make. Israel does not get to break laws when it wants to, and the attitude that they can is positively draconian.
 
Mega said:
Huh what? I thought I made a pretty good statemnt.

Ok, about your arguemnt for taking the land:

Imagine having a place in your country fire rockets at other places in your country.
I don't think your government would think about the humanitarian implications of preventing this situation.
And we do, so that's a point for us. I'm also not saying that we are completely innocent, not at all, but I think that the entire blame os on the palestiniens. Their terror organizations are out there to kille us all, they don't really care about international laws, and I don't see you criticizing them.
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Have I not? I have in at least three posts stated that the blame is equally shared? I have stated that there are Palestinian extremists as well as Israeli extremists and I'm not very fond of either - I don't condone extremism in any way, shape or form and that applies both for Palestinians and Israelis.

This however isn't about the Hamas, which are for all intents and purposes terrorists (by the way, as I said they too get rockets fired on them - By Israel. That doesn't make it okay for them to kill innocent Israeli children and that applies for the other way around too - Oh, and this is a response to the "image having a place..." About how Sweden's government would react, I don't know because we haven't been in a war in 200 years, we've only partaken in NATO missions) . It's about an illegal boarding of a ship and the ruthless control of the info stream - I mean, does it not sound odd that the state of the people that were on the same boat as the killed activists is pretty much unheard of? Is it not odd that all telephone connection was interrupted during the attack? It's not like they could've called for aid. It's simply to sabotage their ability to get their story out. There is no info in the media that hasn't been issued by the Israeli. That is enough to make me doubt every single statement the government makes.

And no, you haven't responded to several of my arguments. LC even made a reference to one of those and you ignored that as well.

And I disagree about you that most of the blame is on the Palestinians. Both Palestina and Israel have commited horrible deeds that cannot be justified. If Denmark would attempt to retake Skåne (which we conquered 350 years ago and commited genocide in the process) by sending an army, would that justify us blowing Denmark to pieces with atom bombs? Could we say "The blame is on them!!!" (I'm not implying that Israel have done more gruesome deeds than Palestina, it's just a comparison)? No. The blame is never on one side in a conflcit like this, especially not when both act as badly.
 
I think the discussion needs to step back from the legality of what's going on with Gaza.
 
Is the blockade legal?..It's 70+ miles (sorry about using US Measurement international mates ;)) Far into internantional waters. I understand the basis of the blockade, to ensure  weapons are being smuggled into Gaza, but it is still far into internantional waters. Both sides acted badly and are to blame, but I think the troops could have used some restraint.
 
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