The Mavi Marmara incident.

LooseCannon said:
The description of these wounds is quite chilling:
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LC's link said:
A forensic report said he was shot at close range, with four bullets in his head and one in his chest, according to the Anatolian news agency.
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Indeed, especially taking into consideration that the soldiers only opened fire when they were being mobbed by a bunch of activists, and supposedly only had handguns as "real" weapons besides the paintball guns.  You just don't fire four bullets into someone's head with a handgun while being attacked with metal pipes, not in those conditions.  And what about a warning shot into the leg or arm first?  In most cases, you're not allowed to use lethal force (speaking of soldier-versus-civilian in a non-war situation) before there's an immediate danger of loss of life, e.g. the guy you shoot is pointing a gun at you or someone else on your side.  Sorry I can't translate it better from Finnish, but that's what I was trained/taught, and I'd think rules of engagement in these kinds of situations are similar or at least comparable everywhere
 
The facts are getting dirtier, and more difficult to deny.

Meanwhile Angela Merkel demands an international research. She prefers a collaboration between the EU, the UN, Russia and the USA.
 
Invader said:
I think Mega does have a point in a way; (almost?) none of us live in Israel or other country in a similar situation, and none of our countries is in a real risk or "have our life on the line" as Mega put it.
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eddiesson said:
In a funny way I do. 40 Turkish soldiers died within the last 30 days, because of PKK ambushes. And they are threatening to use suicide bombers in big cities, starting this month.
I see Israel making the similar mistakes we did, and are doing.
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I don't think we can even compare Turkey and Israel in that. Turkey is by far in a more difficult situation.
Israel regions that are in a relative danger, are the occupied regions. Occupied. Land that should be Palestinian state, or at least not habituated by Israelis. 
Also the the conditions Kurdish people live, not be compared to the sub-human conditions that Palestinians live in Gaza.

40 Turkish soldiers died and nobody knows anything. It's all about information. The half of the US press found attack reasonable.
With the correct brainwashing, one can find even the Tienanmen incident reasonable,
and terrorists, people armed with bad breath, colourful language & feather duster.
 
I was not talking to you in particular and there are no terrorists in my post. This is exactly the point.
 
Will-I-Am said:
I don't think we can even compare Turkey and Israel in that. Turkey is by far in a more difficult situation.
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I'd like to clarify what I meant when I said "situation". I was talking more than just terrorists, I meant the larger geographical and political context that Israel is in.  How many other countries have been at war with practically all of their neighbours several times in the last half a century?  Yes, the Yom Kippur War and the Six Day war were a long time ago, but the fact remains that most countries in Israel's vicinity, or at least many citizens or organizations of some of those countries,  don't want Israel there.  For a person living in the European Union, and especially for a person living in a country that has not been in war for over 60 years (including myself), that situation can be quite hard to grasp.  And like I said, most of us don't have obligatory military training, and those that do, are not at a risk of actually having to fight (against our will). 
 
Don't forget that Israel's policy is extremely offensive. How many wars started because two soldiers were kidnapped ??
Also Kurdish people they always live in their land, while Palestinian they are thrown away from it and kept pushed away
and treated with an extreme violence.

Yes Israel has some serious problems, but is the main responsible for them. This is the difference.
 
No, you can't blame Israel's policy mate. Not in the whole. The fact of the matter is that we have two people who believe that they are entitled to a piece of land because their god says so. That *always* ends up violent. I agree that Israel is not handling it as well as they could, but neither have the Palestinians, traditionally.

This thread isn't about Turkey. Nor is it about Israel's overall policy towards the Palestinians, excepting as how it affected their decision to attack the flotilla in international waters.

Now, I do want to draw a contrast between another very major event that has recently occurred. When South Korea's ship was sunk, they held off on the wild accusations (for instance, Israel has withdrawn the accusation that the flotilla group had links to Al Qaeda). Instead, they invited international experts in to study what happened. Israel could reduce much of the international anger about this by doing so, and being willing to own up to a mistake. But they aren't.

I think it is going to be only a short time before we see Israel making unilateral policy choices, something which would be extremely dangerous for them.
 
LooseCannon said:
The fact of the matter is that we have two people who believe that they are entitled to a piece of land because their god says so.
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It's a matter of borders, land which was taken illegally, isolation, oppression, a zillion of UN resolutions and human rights.
 
I agree 100% with Forostar here.
@LC : I can not blame Israel's policy as a whole, maybe.
But I can not put these two in the same basket, saying that both have the blame equally. No. Israel takes the biggest part.
Forostar explained very well and in a few words.
 
Forostar said:
It's a matter of borders, land which was taken illegally, isolation, oppression, a zillion of UN resolutions and human rights.
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Really, this goes back thousands of years, and that's the fucking problem in itself.
 
Well, Zare, that depends. It is entirely possible that over the next 3 years Israel could end up in a serious fight. I don't know, I feel like Israel does have a threat in Hamas. Hamas always refuses to cooperate except for expediency's sake. I still feel like the steps they have taken go too far in many cases.
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Their own fault. Palestine is a Warsaw-style ghetto today. Go down there, and try to find an objective piece of information. People are living medieval style. They are fighting for their king, Hamas, because they don't know better. And they can't see better, because Israel built the wall.

But what i was trying to say, why can't normal Israeli people see that they've turned these poor Palestinians into animals, pushed them into a corner, and when you do that to animal, it will strike back and bite you.

You can't really compare an extremist that doesn't know any other way, and extremist by choice. The latter are far, far worse.
 
Hamas has made it hard because they've bitten every time Israel has held out a hand, too. So it is not entirely Israel's fault. They don't like getting bitten. And what they have decided is that they are gonna smack the dog every time, so as to not get bit as hard. The problem is that because of that, the dog's behaviour will never change.
 
LooseCannon said:
The fact of the matter is that we have two people who believe that they are entitled to a piece of land because their god says so.
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Which makes all the discussion futile; because reason becomes null when it comes to this.
There was a time people killed others because they believed that The Earth was flat; their god said so.

Maybe next century...

Meanwhile keep fighting people... but don't forget to be civil, ok?
Respect human rights and obey the laws while expanding/defending your territories, exiling people or trying to get what was yours 60 years ago.

Peace out.
 
Well, we have seen these sorts of wars come to an end before - Ireland, for instance. But they continue in many other places. The key thing is to keep working...eventually, someone will realize that it is better to sit down and talk.
 
There is still plenty of turmoil in ireland. Just like the Vasques in Spain... it never goes away, it merely changes in form.
 
Speaking of Ireland: An Irish ship with humanitarian aid headed for the Gaza strip has been stopped today in international waters by the Israel navy.
 
Yes, peacefully this time.  I assume that this time it was also within Israel's territorial waters? (Edit: Oops, it was international.)
 
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