The Mavi Marmara incident.

eddiesson said:
Actually in all my posts you can find clues about how I make a clear distinction between governments and people, as well as people with different views in a country.
When I say Israel or Turkey, I think it was possible to guess what I mean from the context, but I will be more precise in my future posts.
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I know, my friend. I just want it to be clear that we are not trying to blame the people. Trying to make sure it stays as friendly a discussion as possible. Clearly, your unique viewpoint in this discussion has been as valued as Mega's.
 
I saw on the news that one or more of the ships had now been allowed to Gaza, but that Hamas wouldn't allow them to harbor because they wouldn't accept "blood-stained" aid.

They are really the ones to talk about blood-stains, aren't they? If this is correct they will probably score popularity points with some, but most will see it for what it is - holding back supplies from the population, just like Israel are doing. Well, no surprise there. Hamas ain't exactly a class act.
 
eddiesson said:
I will be more precise in my future posts.
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Even more precise? Don't worry man, you're doing well. Good observation, strong argumentation, and if I may say so, fair judgement.
 
So....in the end, what did they take off the Mavi Marmara in terms of confiscated goods, other than cement? I mean, what terrible things were they trying to sneak into Gaza?
 
alot of knives, rotating saws, building equipement, night vision equipement, iron clubs and gas masks.
Also, each of them had thousands of dollars in cash on them.

They were ready for combat dammit. They had a chain of command, and they were trained to attack IDF soldiers and not to talk when arrested. They even have several hizballa logos on the ship.
Did you hear how one of them told our troops to "go back to auschwitz"?

http://blogs.news.sky.com/middleeastblo ... ac3efe60e4

Humanitarian my ass.

On another note:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 0053101699

This is spitting not only in Israel's face, but also the USA's.
I think the Turkish govermant has some really anti-semitic people in their ranks.
 
LooseCannon said:
So....in the end, what did they take off the Mavi Marmara in terms of confiscated goods, other than cement? I mean, what terrible things were they trying to sneak into Gaza?
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I didn't quite understand the deal with cement either.  I heard that Israel fears Hamas would make "launch pads" out of them.  What's the deal with that, can't they fire them from the ground just as well?  From what I've gathered, the rockets are little better than basic mortars, so how do they need specialised launch pads?
 
Mega, I'm sorry. I have ready many different takes on it, and I am sure one or two said terrible, racist things. But I can stand in front of you and rattle off every single anti-Semetic thing I know and it doesn't give you the right to kill me. Neither does walking around with a Nazi flag (not that I'd ever do either thing). Those are arguments of an appeal to emotion. They want you to think these people hate Jews and somehow it justifies killing them.

Regarding the impounded goods, knives, rotating saws, building equipment are not weapons, guns, ammunitions, and explosives.

Every other ship was very peaceful when raided. The participants agreed not to take violent action. Neither did most of the people on the Mavi Marmara. The versions of the people on the ship (which I do not wholly believe) simply do not jive with the official version. The truth is somewhere in the middle.

I agree the Turks are tossing around a lot of over-blown words. And probably there are some anti-Semites there. A few dead people is not a terrorist attack. But they have a legitimate gripe - their people were killed in international waters. Israel is circling the wagons, and I fear they have made an enemy when they didn't need to.


I have been reading a lot of arguments comparing Israel and the Palestinians to South Africa and apartheid. Do people here have any thoughts on that? I think the situations have interesting parallels but are not entirely analogous - South African policy was based on complete racism, whereas I honestly believe Israel has security in mind. The effects, however, are becoming more and more...similar.

Any other thoughts?
 
Mega said:
I think the Turkish govermant has some really anti-semitic people in their ranks.
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Let me elaborate on that a little bit more:
I don't know if there are anti-semitic people in the ranks of turkish government.
But I am 100% sure that the government needs an external enemy (especially with a religious flavor in it) to use to:

  • Divert public attention from the failures in economy (especially unemployment, which s 14.4% at the moment)
  • Make people forget how it became corrupted over the course of 8 years, with a "righteous" cause
  • Prove that it has not completely forgotten its islamic roots.
  • Gain an advantage over opposing political parties that are far weaker when it comes to external relations and diplomacy
  • Oppress any internal opposition by labeling them "jewish israel supporter" (It already started. You criticize the economy, suddenly you find yourself advocating Israel!)
  • Boost the their decreasing support until the referendum on September, which is critically important for the government to (almost) take over the juridical system. I can't stress how vital this referendum is to our "democratic" government in their fascist cause.

If you can find a complete translation of our prime-minister's any recent speeches, you will easily see it yourself.

Every fascist regime needs an external enemy, every fascist regime will motivate through emotions rather than logic. Israeli government gave enough opportunities to be that enemy. Now ours will be exploiting and enjoying this as long as they can. Expect this to go on until the referendum (this september) and the next election (next summer) unless they think they had enough.
Mega said:
alot of knives, rotating saws, building equipement, night vision equipement, iron clubs and gas masks.
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knives, rotating saws, iron clubs... That's basically self defense. And that, if an aggressor gets in range. You can't say that Hamas will attack Israel with knives, or saws, or clubs... I think they already can find enough knives and clubs anyway.

Gas masks? again, you can't beat the hell out of somebody else with a gas mask. Last year, IDF attacked civilians in Gaza using bullets with phosphor (documented by UN observers). Let me stress: Civilians and radiation. tell me why they won't use gas?

Night-vision equipment won't help civilians, so I agree with that one.

As for building equipment. Steel can be reforged and used to create explosives, cement may have a similar use.
But tell me: How can people repair their buildings? how can they repair sewer system? That is basic health and life standard (human rights) Is there any alternative plans to let outsiders enter Gaza and repair themselves, if you don't trust Palestinians to do it on their own?
 
You are all missing my point here.
The purpose of these weapons was to attack IDF soldiers, it doesn't have anything to do with gaza at all.

I'm trying to get across that none of this marmara business had anything to do with gaza, only with provocation.
The newer ships that follow because they think that the marmara was a humanitarian ship may actually be humanitarian, but if they are we can ship whatever they want into gaza.

Also, there's no crisis in gaza that needs external help. We give them what they need, it's the hamas that makes everything difficult.
 
Well, as I have said, I don't think this is about Gaza directly. But why is only the one ship equipped to fight people? Why was only one ship designed as a "trap"? As I have said, I don't think this adds up. To me, it sounds like a select group of people on the Turkic ship decided to fight back. And as I have already said - they were justified in doing so, as IDF soldiers were illegally boarding their ship.

This was not an attempt to kill IDF soldiers. It was a publicity stunt that simultaneously went terribly wrong and incredibly well for the people involved.
 
As I've seen more and more footage proving that there were people on board Mavi Marmara who were prepared for outright combat, it makes me think that the peace activists on that ship worked as useful idiots for provocateurs.

For example, the Norwegians who were on board one of the ships were all the way saying that they were on a humanitarian mission, and that they and their shipmates had agreed not to use violence if they were boarded by the Israelis. Still, there were people who wanted to start a fight, making the others - useful idiots.

I mean, when Israel have clearly stated that they will use force to prevent ships from breaking the blockade, who the fuck go on board with iron bars and other weapons, ready to start a fight if boarded - unless they really want a fight? Did they think they could keep the soldiers off their ship, and make their way to Gaza using force? If so, they were stupid. Too stupid that this is thinkable. No, they wanted to provoke a fight. I sincerely think they wanted blood to be spilled.

If any of the 9 killed were in fact passive bystanders, I feel sorry for them and their families. But for the rest? No. What purpose would their acts serve, except hardening the fronts in the conflict even more?

A peaceful convoy, in which all the ships were boarded and taken arrest by the IDF, would qualify for the world's sympathy. The fight-mongerers on board the Mavi Marmara get none from me.

LooseCannon said:
This was not an attempt to kill IDF soldiers. It was a publicity stunt that simultaneously went terribly wrong and incredibly well for the people involved.
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Indeed.
 
Yeah. A few idiots who may have encouraged others to fight back. A foolish decision that cost some of them their lives.
 
I think both sides have twisted views of the problem and because of this nothing will ever be resolved. Similarly, this thread has gone for 5 pages and it's gotten nowhere. It's no use trying to reason with those people.
 
I disagree with 'nowhere'. People, here, have gained more understanding of the situation. And Mega has agreed with a few points that he may not have originally seen. However, extrem-ism has no cure. (IMO)
 
Yeah, but one or two supporting nations isn't enough, and I think only the US recognizes the embargo.
 
LooseCannon said:
Yeah, but one or two supporting nations isn't enough, and I think only the US recognizes the embargo.
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I don't think so! The fact that US avoid to condemn that action, doesn't mean that recognises it.
 
I'm honestly not sure. Most international experts believe that the situation that existed when the Mavi Marmara was boarded was an illegal boarding. At least, the ones I have read are. The ones who argue otherwise seem to have shaky standing. I'm not an expert, but let's just say I'd bet against Israel on that one.
 
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