The Israel-Palestine Conflict
- Thread starter ____no5
- Start date
Nigel Tufnel
Ancient Mariner
I thought you could drink and party your ass off there 
I know getting shitfaced drunk is against Islamic law. My brother could'n t even have a beer, so he took up playing golf.
I know getting shitfaced drunk is against Islamic law. My brother could'n t even have a beer, so he took up playing golf.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Can Israel let go of its turbulent past?
By Abir Sarras / 16-01-2009
Avraham Burg, a former Israeli politician, has again stirred up discussion and self-reflection in Jewish communities with his second book titled: The Holocaust is over; we must rise from its ashes. He argues that while the memory of the Holocaust must be kept alive, Israel has been using it as a "political tool".
The trauma that Jewish people experienced more than 60 years ago still haunts Israeli society today and remains evident in its rhetoric, irrespective of whether people actually experienced the Holocaust themselves, believes to Mr Burg.
According to Mr Burg,
"It's fine to remember the Holocaust, it's sacred to sanctify the Holocaust, but we can not make it a political tool which excuses everything... It is about time to think, maybe not yet do; to slowly but surely move from trauma to trust".
Reflecting on his own society, Mr Burg suggests that the ongoing trauma has made Israel a frightened society in a permanent state of paranoia, leading to an over-forceful use of the military such as in the current Cast Lead Operation in Gaza.
Copy and paste
It is almost impossible to go about your own life in Israel without being reminded of the Holocaust. Mr Burg says that the collective and personal traumas should be respected; the state on the other hand must not pass it on to younger generations. Drawing from his own experience, Mr Burg explains how he thinks the government "copies" trauma and "pastes" it on to new generations. The Israeli Ministry of Education sends all high school students to visit the concentration camps in Eastern Europe.
Mr Burg tells RNW:
"I have six children, most went on the annual 11th-grade trip to Auschwitz. With the first five children I failed, but with the sixth child I succeeded. I told them it is wrong to go. As traumatic as it was, and as important a chapter in our history as it is, you are too young, even before entering [mandatory e.d.] military service. I see it as a sort of emotional manipulation".
Instead, Mr Burg suggests that the ministry promotes a wider perspective allowing Arab and Israeli youngsters to visit Spain to learn about previous coexistence between Judaism and Islam. Then they can find out about the suffering of Jewish communities in Europe as well as learning about what he calls the "tragedy" the Palestinians are living today.
Never again
Politicians on both sides know the only solution between Palestinians and Israelis should include returning to the 1967 boundaries, dismantling most of the Israeli settlements, and establishing an exchange programme for refugees, Mr Burg explains. But the solution is not only political, he adds.
Instead he offers a humanistic approach to resolving the conflict. The words "Never Again" should not only refer to the Jewish trauma, but also to all suffering, Palestinian as well as Jewish.
Mr Burg says:
"What characterises the Middle East conflict in the past 60 years is that there is a competition of traumas. And the wisdom of leadership is not to intensify the trauma and ignite more fire, but to sit down and say yes you have a trauma and I respect it. I will come to that the day after tomorrow, because tomorrow we must worry about a better future, not fight about a better past".
The messenger
Critics of Mr Burg accuse him of a lack of empathy with the Israeli experience.
Avraham Burg
This is not the first time he has published views considered controversial in Israeli society. In 2003 he published an article called: The end of Zionism in which he wrote:
"Israel, having ceased to care about the children of the Palestinians, should not be surprised when they come washed in hatred and blow themselves up in the centres of Israeli escapism".
With his new book on the Holocaust, Mr Burg says it is not the message that is so controversial as much as it is the messenger himself. As a previous member and speaker of the Israeli Knesset, head of the Jewish Agency, and candidate to lead the Labour party, Burg is a well-respected, leading politician in Israel. He also served for a short period as interim President of Israel when president Ezer Weizman resigned. In 2003, he left politics protesting the lack of vision and direction for the future of Israel. Since then he has published two books analysing the factors that have made Israeli society what it is now.
------------------
+
Meanwhile another school was attacked:
Gaza strikes ahead of truce vote
Israel's military has carried out 50 air strikes in Gaza overnight as its cabinet prepares to vote on a proposal for a unilateral ceasefire.
Palestinians say a tank shell hit a UN school in northern Gaza, killing at least two people sheltering there. Israel says it is checking the report.
The UN Relief and Works Agency (Unrwa) said Israel's actions in Gaza should be investigated as possible war crimes.
Hamas said it would ignore any truce if its conditions were not met.
A spokesman for the militant group, Osama Abu Hemdan, told AFP news agency: "As long as it [the Israeli military] remains in Gaza, resistance and confrontation will continue."
Israeli warplanes renewed bombing raids on Gaza just before dawn on Saturday, with heavy explosions south of Gaza City.
United Nations officials say two children, aged five and seven, were killed when Israeli tank fire hit a UN school where hundreds had taken shelter in the northern town of Beit Lahiya.
A spokesman for Unrwa in Gaza, Chris Gunness, said: "There has to be an investigation to determine whether a war crime has been committed."
This is not the first time the UN has talked about war crimes in Gaza.
Earlier this month, UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay said some Israeli actions reported in Gaza might warrant prosecutions for war crimes.
Israel's security cabinet will vote on Saturday evening on whether to declare a ceasefire, after its government said it thought "significant progress" had been made at talks with Egyptian mediators in Cairo.
Under the Egyptian proposal, fighting would stop immediately for 10 days and Israeli forces would remain in Gaza while the border crossings into the territory would remain closed.
Rocket attacks
For its part, Egypt would, with international help, try to shut down weapons smuggling routes on its boundary with Gaza and discussions on opening the crossings would take place at a later date.
Hamas insists any ceasefire must involve Israeli troops withdrawing from Gaza and an immediate lifting of the Israeli blockade. Hamas officials are expected to attend further talks on Saturday in Cairo.
Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev earlier told the BBC he thought Israel may have achieved enough in its three-week offensive to allow a ceasefire.
"I think we're seeing the pieces of the puzzle fall into place and we see the foundations for what we see as a long-term calm in the south," he said.
But on Friday Palestinian militants in Gaza reportedly fired more than 15 rockets at southern Israel, leaving five Israelis wounded.
Israel's main objective in Operation Cast Lead is to end Gaza militants' ability to fire rockets at Israel and stop them smuggling through tunnels from Egypt.
US-Israel deal
On Friday, Israel and the US signed a deal in Washington that calls for expanded intelligence co-operation between their two countries to prevent Hamas smuggling arms into Gaza if a ceasefire is implemented.
Under the agreement, the US will provide detection and surveillance equipment, as well as logistical help and training to Israel, Egypt and other nations for monitoring Gaza's land and sea boundaries.
In the US capital, Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni said Israel would have to suspend any ceasefire if Hamas continued to fire rockets.
The Palestinian health ministry in Gaza has told the BBC that 1,193 people have been killed, including 410 children and 108 women since the conflict began on 27 December.
There were 5,300 people wounded, including 1,600 children, the ministry said.
Thirteen Israelis, mostly soldiers, have been killed during the campaign.
On Friday night, the UN General Assembly in New York overwhelmingly passed a resolution calling for an immediate and durable ceasefire in Gaza, leading to a full withdrawal of Israeli troops.
The BBC's Christian Fraser in southern Gaza says the situation for Palestinian families there is tough, with food and electricity supplies limited and no running water.
He says in the skies above can be heard the scream of F-16 jets circling for their next targets.
By Abir Sarras / 16-01-2009
Avraham Burg, a former Israeli politician, has again stirred up discussion and self-reflection in Jewish communities with his second book titled: The Holocaust is over; we must rise from its ashes. He argues that while the memory of the Holocaust must be kept alive, Israel has been using it as a "political tool".
The trauma that Jewish people experienced more than 60 years ago still haunts Israeli society today and remains evident in its rhetoric, irrespective of whether people actually experienced the Holocaust themselves, believes to Mr Burg.
According to Mr Burg,
"It's fine to remember the Holocaust, it's sacred to sanctify the Holocaust, but we can not make it a political tool which excuses everything... It is about time to think, maybe not yet do; to slowly but surely move from trauma to trust".
Reflecting on his own society, Mr Burg suggests that the ongoing trauma has made Israel a frightened society in a permanent state of paranoia, leading to an over-forceful use of the military such as in the current Cast Lead Operation in Gaza.
Copy and paste
It is almost impossible to go about your own life in Israel without being reminded of the Holocaust. Mr Burg says that the collective and personal traumas should be respected; the state on the other hand must not pass it on to younger generations. Drawing from his own experience, Mr Burg explains how he thinks the government "copies" trauma and "pastes" it on to new generations. The Israeli Ministry of Education sends all high school students to visit the concentration camps in Eastern Europe.
Mr Burg tells RNW:
"I have six children, most went on the annual 11th-grade trip to Auschwitz. With the first five children I failed, but with the sixth child I succeeded. I told them it is wrong to go. As traumatic as it was, and as important a chapter in our history as it is, you are too young, even before entering [mandatory e.d.] military service. I see it as a sort of emotional manipulation".
Instead, Mr Burg suggests that the ministry promotes a wider perspective allowing Arab and Israeli youngsters to visit Spain to learn about previous coexistence between Judaism and Islam. Then they can find out about the suffering of Jewish communities in Europe as well as learning about what he calls the "tragedy" the Palestinians are living today.
Never again
Politicians on both sides know the only solution between Palestinians and Israelis should include returning to the 1967 boundaries, dismantling most of the Israeli settlements, and establishing an exchange programme for refugees, Mr Burg explains. But the solution is not only political, he adds.
Instead he offers a humanistic approach to resolving the conflict. The words "Never Again" should not only refer to the Jewish trauma, but also to all suffering, Palestinian as well as Jewish.
Mr Burg says:
"What characterises the Middle East conflict in the past 60 years is that there is a competition of traumas. And the wisdom of leadership is not to intensify the trauma and ignite more fire, but to sit down and say yes you have a trauma and I respect it. I will come to that the day after tomorrow, because tomorrow we must worry about a better future, not fight about a better past".
The messenger
Critics of Mr Burg accuse him of a lack of empathy with the Israeli experience.
Avraham Burg
This is not the first time he has published views considered controversial in Israeli society. In 2003 he published an article called: The end of Zionism in which he wrote:
"Israel, having ceased to care about the children of the Palestinians, should not be surprised when they come washed in hatred and blow themselves up in the centres of Israeli escapism".
With his new book on the Holocaust, Mr Burg says it is not the message that is so controversial as much as it is the messenger himself. As a previous member and speaker of the Israeli Knesset, head of the Jewish Agency, and candidate to lead the Labour party, Burg is a well-respected, leading politician in Israel. He also served for a short period as interim President of Israel when president Ezer Weizman resigned. In 2003, he left politics protesting the lack of vision and direction for the future of Israel. Since then he has published two books analysing the factors that have made Israeli society what it is now.
------------------
+
Meanwhile another school was attacked:
Gaza strikes ahead of truce vote
Israel's military has carried out 50 air strikes in Gaza overnight as its cabinet prepares to vote on a proposal for a unilateral ceasefire.
Palestinians say a tank shell hit a UN school in northern Gaza, killing at least two people sheltering there. Israel says it is checking the report.
The UN Relief and Works Agency (Unrwa) said Israel's actions in Gaza should be investigated as possible war crimes.
Hamas said it would ignore any truce if its conditions were not met.
A spokesman for the militant group, Osama Abu Hemdan, told AFP news agency: "As long as it [the Israeli military] remains in Gaza, resistance and confrontation will continue."
Israeli warplanes renewed bombing raids on Gaza just before dawn on Saturday, with heavy explosions south of Gaza City.
United Nations officials say two children, aged five and seven, were killed when Israeli tank fire hit a UN school where hundreds had taken shelter in the northern town of Beit Lahiya.
A spokesman for Unrwa in Gaza, Chris Gunness, said: "There has to be an investigation to determine whether a war crime has been committed."
This is not the first time the UN has talked about war crimes in Gaza.
Earlier this month, UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay said some Israeli actions reported in Gaza might warrant prosecutions for war crimes.
Israel's security cabinet will vote on Saturday evening on whether to declare a ceasefire, after its government said it thought "significant progress" had been made at talks with Egyptian mediators in Cairo.
Under the Egyptian proposal, fighting would stop immediately for 10 days and Israeli forces would remain in Gaza while the border crossings into the territory would remain closed.
Rocket attacks
For its part, Egypt would, with international help, try to shut down weapons smuggling routes on its boundary with Gaza and discussions on opening the crossings would take place at a later date.
Hamas insists any ceasefire must involve Israeli troops withdrawing from Gaza and an immediate lifting of the Israeli blockade. Hamas officials are expected to attend further talks on Saturday in Cairo.
Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev earlier told the BBC he thought Israel may have achieved enough in its three-week offensive to allow a ceasefire.
"I think we're seeing the pieces of the puzzle fall into place and we see the foundations for what we see as a long-term calm in the south," he said.
But on Friday Palestinian militants in Gaza reportedly fired more than 15 rockets at southern Israel, leaving five Israelis wounded.
Israel's main objective in Operation Cast Lead is to end Gaza militants' ability to fire rockets at Israel and stop them smuggling through tunnels from Egypt.
US-Israel deal
On Friday, Israel and the US signed a deal in Washington that calls for expanded intelligence co-operation between their two countries to prevent Hamas smuggling arms into Gaza if a ceasefire is implemented.
Under the agreement, the US will provide detection and surveillance equipment, as well as logistical help and training to Israel, Egypt and other nations for monitoring Gaza's land and sea boundaries.
In the US capital, Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni said Israel would have to suspend any ceasefire if Hamas continued to fire rockets.
The Palestinian health ministry in Gaza has told the BBC that 1,193 people have been killed, including 410 children and 108 women since the conflict began on 27 December.
There were 5,300 people wounded, including 1,600 children, the ministry said.
Thirteen Israelis, mostly soldiers, have been killed during the campaign.
On Friday night, the UN General Assembly in New York overwhelmingly passed a resolution calling for an immediate and durable ceasefire in Gaza, leading to a full withdrawal of Israeli troops.
The BBC's Christian Fraser in southern Gaza says the situation for Palestinian families there is tough, with food and electricity supplies limited and no running water.
He says in the skies above can be heard the scream of F-16 jets circling for their next targets.
____no5
Free Man
It must be the very first time inn its history that Israel is in danger to be blamed for War Crimes.
People like this guy are needed more and more in Israel, as well as everywhere.
I didn't know that !
Yeah, Mr. Burg is right; although every one can go to Auschwitz as a particular and adult if he feels to,
collective school trips there, should be avoided.
People like this guy are needed more and more in Israel, as well as everywhere.
I didn't know that !
Yeah, Mr. Burg is right; although every one can go to Auschwitz as a particular and adult if he feels to,
collective school trips there, should be avoided.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Arab leaders patch up differences over Gaza - Qatar
DUBAI, Jan 19 (Reuters) - Arab leaders have patched up their differences over the three-week Israeli offensive against Gaza in a Saudi reconciliation bid on the sidelines of an Arab summit that had been marred by divisions, Qatar's prime minister said.
Differences over how to deal with the Israeli offensive that killed more than 1,300 people highlighted the divide between Egypt, Saudi Arabia and their allies on one side, and Syria, Qatar and their allies on the other.
Saudi Arabia and Egypt have tended to lean towards Western-backed Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, while Syria and Qatar have been more sympathetic to Palestinian Islamist movement Hamas, which has ruled Gaza since routing Abbas' forces in June 2007.
King Abdullah, leader of regional powerbroker Saudi Arabia, called on Arabs at the summit opening to rise above their differences and hosted a lunch that brought together the leaders of Kuwait, Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Qatar, Qatar premier Sheikh Hamad bin Jassim al-Thani told Al Jazeera TV.
"This speech prepared for a reconciliation led today by (King Abdullah) with ... the emir of Kuwait," Sheikh Hamad said.
"There was clear word from these leaders for a real, clear reconciliation, from the heart. We left with an understanding that undoubtedly a new page had been turned that would benefit and strengthen the Arab position..."
Clusters of Arab leaders have held three meetings in the last five days, a flurry that underscored their divisions.
Egypt and Saudi Arabia had shunned a meeting in Doha to discuss the Gaza crisis, at which Qatar and Mauritania froze ties with Israel and Syria pronounced a 2002 Arab peace initiative dead.
They preferred instead to discuss the Gaza crisis at the previously scheduled economic summit taking place in Kuwait.
Egypt, the only Arab state bordering Gaza, negotiated with both Hamas and Israel to reach the shaky ceasefire now in place. But it has been criticised in the Arab world for cooperating with the Israeli blockade of Gaza in recent months.
Arab divisions overshadowed all items on the agenda in Kuwait, with Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak launching a strong verbal attack on critics of Egypt's policy.
Sheikh Hamad said there were some misunderstandings over the Doha meeting, which was not meant to replace Kuwait's summit.
"We hope now that we can put our hands together ... to strengthen the Arab position," Sheikh Hamad said. (Writing by Lin Noueihed; Editing by Giles ELgood)
DUBAI, Jan 19 (Reuters) - Arab leaders have patched up their differences over the three-week Israeli offensive against Gaza in a Saudi reconciliation bid on the sidelines of an Arab summit that had been marred by divisions, Qatar's prime minister said.
Differences over how to deal with the Israeli offensive that killed more than 1,300 people highlighted the divide between Egypt, Saudi Arabia and their allies on one side, and Syria, Qatar and their allies on the other.
Saudi Arabia and Egypt have tended to lean towards Western-backed Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, while Syria and Qatar have been more sympathetic to Palestinian Islamist movement Hamas, which has ruled Gaza since routing Abbas' forces in June 2007.
King Abdullah, leader of regional powerbroker Saudi Arabia, called on Arabs at the summit opening to rise above their differences and hosted a lunch that brought together the leaders of Kuwait, Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Qatar, Qatar premier Sheikh Hamad bin Jassim al-Thani told Al Jazeera TV.
"This speech prepared for a reconciliation led today by (King Abdullah) with ... the emir of Kuwait," Sheikh Hamad said.
"There was clear word from these leaders for a real, clear reconciliation, from the heart. We left with an understanding that undoubtedly a new page had been turned that would benefit and strengthen the Arab position..."
Clusters of Arab leaders have held three meetings in the last five days, a flurry that underscored their divisions.
Egypt and Saudi Arabia had shunned a meeting in Doha to discuss the Gaza crisis, at which Qatar and Mauritania froze ties with Israel and Syria pronounced a 2002 Arab peace initiative dead.
They preferred instead to discuss the Gaza crisis at the previously scheduled economic summit taking place in Kuwait.
Egypt, the only Arab state bordering Gaza, negotiated with both Hamas and Israel to reach the shaky ceasefire now in place. But it has been criticised in the Arab world for cooperating with the Israeli blockade of Gaza in recent months.
Arab divisions overshadowed all items on the agenda in Kuwait, with Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak launching a strong verbal attack on critics of Egypt's policy.
Sheikh Hamad said there were some misunderstandings over the Doha meeting, which was not meant to replace Kuwait's summit.
"We hope now that we can put our hands together ... to strengthen the Arab position," Sheikh Hamad said. (Writing by Lin Noueihed; Editing by Giles ELgood)
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
I find it encouraging that a lot of countries (more than ever) are criticizing Israel for their growing settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories. The US seems to have joined the club.
Obama said "Israelis must acknowledge that just as Israel's right to exist cannot be denied, neither can Palestine's."
Israel says 'natural growth' should be allowed in existing settlements but that is akin to asking whether a thief should be allowed merely to keep his ill-gotten gains or steal some more.
Let's see how many years to go before we see improvements.
Obama said "Israelis must acknowledge that just as Israel's right to exist cannot be denied, neither can Palestine's."
Israel says 'natural growth' should be allowed in existing settlements but that is akin to asking whether a thief should be allowed merely to keep his ill-gotten gains or steal some more.
Let's see how many years to go before we see improvements.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
If the Middle East is the ass of the world, then Israel is certainly becomes its growing pain in it:
Today Israel defied the US (and the rest of the world) and gave the startsign to build another 50 (in a plan of 1450!) houses on the West Bank.
*sigh*
Let them build skyscrapers or something, and give the most ultra-orthodox jews the highest apartments.
Today Israel defied the US (and the rest of the world) and gave the startsign to build another 50 (in a plan of 1450!) houses on the West Bank.
*sigh*
Let them build skyscrapers or something, and give the most ultra-orthodox jews the highest apartments.
Forostar said:
It's not. Costa Rica is the ass of the world. Says so on Flight 666.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
There's a saying in Dutch:
"Al is de leugen nog zo snel, de waarheid achterhaalt haar wel."
translation:
"Even though the lie is fast, the truth will still catch up with it."
Et voila, amen to this development:
(source):
-------
Until now, Israel always had a ready answer to allegations of war crimes in Gaza. Claims were, they said, Palestinian propaganda. Now the accusations of abuse are being made by Israeli soldiers.
"Al is de leugen nog zo snel, de waarheid achterhaalt haar wel."
translation:
"Even though the lie is fast, the truth will still catch up with it."
Et voila, amen to this development:
(source):
-------
Until now, Israel always had a ready answer to allegations of war crimes in Gaza. Claims were, they said, Palestinian propaganda. Now the accusations of abuse are being made by Israeli soldiers.
pilau
Nomad
I just read through half of this thread until I couldn't take anymore, lol. Hell, it's too long!
Anyway, I would like to add some facts you might not be aware of, mainly because you don't live here (in Israel, that is).
First of all, like me, many Israelis are starting to accept that a Palestinian state is the way to go.
But that's not enough, because the others, those who don't belive so, are the majority here and this majority is composed of many groups of which their nature is problematic. I will explain this through a couple of topics. First of all, the Israeli society is a society that belives in power. As you may already know, the vast majority of the citizens here (that includes Jews, Christians and Druzi Arabs) serve in the IDF from the age of 18 to 21 (girls serve for 2 years). This social frame as I would like to call it is the social fusion reator of Israel. It bridges over almost any gaps in the wide ethnic, religous, social and econmical spectrum of the Israeli society, and as such has an immese effect on the development of the individual identity in the Israeli society.
Secondly, and continuing the former, because of this militant power-led character of the society here a very rightist government has been chosen in the last Israeli elections.
Next is religion.
Please understand that as much as the Palestinians are a highly religious society, the Israelis are not. The majority of Jews here are secular jews (i.e. they do belive in the Torah and God but only participate in religious rituals during Jewish holidays), but this is changing. According to birth statistics in 30 years the Orthodox Jews will be the majority. And they are far, far more rightist than the common Israeli. This leads me to the next point:
The last obstacle I am aware of, (there may be more of course), may well be the toughest of all.
The people who live in the settlements and those who support them.
These can be either secular or religous people but in any case they are the most rightist people in Israel. Those among them who are religous are truly fanatics as much as the Hamas are, that they even send their men and boys to fight IDF and Israeli border police forces in Samaria that are there to protect these settlements from Arab terror attacks. The problem with evacuating the settlements comes from the fear of a civil war in case the government will decide to execute removal of these settlements.
So, to sum it up:
- The majority of society is militant and power-led.
- Rightist government.
- Majority of religous rightist Orthodox Jews in 30 years.
- Fear of a civil war.
These are probably the obstacles that prevent settlement evacuation.
I would like to add my personal opinon that with proper education and peaceful propaganda on both sides the conflict could have ended a long time ago.
I would also like to state that I am a soldier of the IDF (leaving service in November this year) and that I am not a religious person at all (actually, no offence, I think that religion is rubbish, modern religion in particular.)
PS: Would you belive me if I said I typed all this on my phone?
Anyway, I would like to add some facts you might not be aware of, mainly because you don't live here (in Israel, that is).
First of all, like me, many Israelis are starting to accept that a Palestinian state is the way to go.
But that's not enough, because the others, those who don't belive so, are the majority here and this majority is composed of many groups of which their nature is problematic. I will explain this through a couple of topics. First of all, the Israeli society is a society that belives in power. As you may already know, the vast majority of the citizens here (that includes Jews, Christians and Druzi Arabs) serve in the IDF from the age of 18 to 21 (girls serve for 2 years). This social frame as I would like to call it is the social fusion reator of Israel. It bridges over almost any gaps in the wide ethnic, religous, social and econmical spectrum of the Israeli society, and as such has an immese effect on the development of the individual identity in the Israeli society.
Secondly, and continuing the former, because of this militant power-led character of the society here a very rightist government has been chosen in the last Israeli elections.
Next is religion.
Please understand that as much as the Palestinians are a highly religious society, the Israelis are not. The majority of Jews here are secular jews (i.e. they do belive in the Torah and God but only participate in religious rituals during Jewish holidays), but this is changing. According to birth statistics in 30 years the Orthodox Jews will be the majority. And they are far, far more rightist than the common Israeli. This leads me to the next point:
The last obstacle I am aware of, (there may be more of course), may well be the toughest of all.
The people who live in the settlements and those who support them.
These can be either secular or religous people but in any case they are the most rightist people in Israel. Those among them who are religous are truly fanatics as much as the Hamas are, that they even send their men and boys to fight IDF and Israeli border police forces in Samaria that are there to protect these settlements from Arab terror attacks. The problem with evacuating the settlements comes from the fear of a civil war in case the government will decide to execute removal of these settlements.
So, to sum it up:
- The majority of society is militant and power-led.
- Rightist government.
- Majority of religous rightist Orthodox Jews in 30 years.
- Fear of a civil war.
These are probably the obstacles that prevent settlement evacuation.
I would like to add my personal opinon that with proper education and peaceful propaganda on both sides the conflict could have ended a long time ago.
I would also like to state that I am a soldier of the IDF (leaving service in November this year) and that I am not a religious person at all (actually, no offence, I think that religion is rubbish, modern religion in particular.)
PS: Would you belive me if I said I typed all this on my phone?
____no5
Free Man
You are the first Israeli I meet here
I agree that Palestinians might be more religious than you, but to my eyes Israel is a highly religious country
First of all, its existence is due to religion and personally I see it like a mix of a western -Arab way of be
The fact that you are taught religion until 16-17 years old in school
The fact that to import meat in Israel is a hell of a trouble (due to kasher case), to say two everyday examples,
show that religion is well established in the everyday life there
I like present Israel though -I find it a very crazy country (of course you have to see it beyond its political context when there)
-Jerusalem is certainly not my favourite city, but Tel Aviv rocks enormously
I agree that Palestinians might be more religious than you, but to my eyes Israel is a highly religious country
First of all, its existence is due to religion and personally I see it like a mix of a western -Arab way of be
The fact that you are taught religion until 16-17 years old in school
The fact that to import meat in Israel is a hell of a trouble (due to kasher case), to say two everyday examples,
show that religion is well established in the everyday life there
I like present Israel though -I find it a very crazy country (of course you have to see it beyond its political context when there)
-Jerusalem is certainly not my favourite city, but Tel Aviv rocks enormously
Thanks for the insight, pilau. It's refreshing to hear a point of view from somebody who actually lives there and sees things first-hand instead of someone who claims moral superiority but lives in a country that hasn't known a real state of emergency for the past 60 years.
pilau
Nomad
I'm glad I was able to give you that insight, this was my intention
@Quetzalcoatlus: Pleased to meet you too
Regarding what you said, you are totally right, but the effect of religion on israeli military actions is negligible, because they are not religion-based, they happen for defense purposes only, where military actions by the Hamas for example are religious based (for example, their religious leaders send sucide bombers to bombings and many similar actions).
Regarding the religious status of Israel, you were right. An interesting point: the debate on the seperation of religion from state has been going on for years here. It's one of the main reasons why we haven't yet estalished a constitution.
By the way, I hold the same opinions like about Jerusalem and Tel-Aviv
Did you visit Israel in the past?
I am sorry that it is way off topic, but what does your name mean, Quetzalcoatlus?
@Quetzalcoatlus: Pleased to meet you too
Regarding what you said, you are totally right, but the effect of religion on israeli military actions is negligible, because they are not religion-based, they happen for defense purposes only, where military actions by the Hamas for example are religious based (for example, their religious leaders send sucide bombers to bombings and many similar actions).
Regarding the religious status of Israel, you were right. An interesting point: the debate on the seperation of religion from state has been going on for years here. It's one of the main reasons why we haven't yet estalished a constitution.
By the way, I hold the same opinions like about Jerusalem and Tel-Aviv
Did you visit Israel in the past?
I am sorry that it is way off topic, but what does your name mean, Quetzalcoatlus?
____no5
Free Man
pilau said:By the way, I hold the same opinions like about Jerusalem and Tel-Aviv
Did you visit Israel in the past?
I do visit countries in Middle East from time to time, and regarding Israel, I'm in love with Tel Aviv
One restaurant that I appreciate is Messa -19 Ha'arba'a str -you should visit it some day
pilau said:
It's a bird-dinosaur, but never mind, my name here is no5
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Perun said:
Well, I for one am glad that he isn't an orthodox jew because then I wouldn't give a heck about his comments, simply because he would deny the interest of the Palestinians. See, location isn't anything. It's how you stand in it, and how you look at it.
But morals are still morals. And human rights are human rights. About a week ago Solana made my day:
The European Union's foreign policy chief called for the U.N. Security Council to recognise a Palestinian state by a certain deadline even if Israelis and Palestinians have not reached agreement among themselves.
The EU's Javier Solana made his comments on Saturday at a lecture in London while Palestinian and Israeli peace talks remain stalled.
The Palestinians have said they will not revive peace talks unless there is a halt to Israel's settlement activities in the West Bank.
"After a fixed deadline, a U.N. Security Council resolution should proclaim the adoption of the two-state solution," Solana said, adding this should include border parameters, refugees, control over the city of Jerusalem and security arrangements.
"It would accept the Palestinian state as a full member of the U.N., and set a calendar for implementation. It would mandate the resolution of other remaining territorial disputes and legitimise the end of claims," Solana went on.
Advocating a return to Israel's borders before the 1967 war with Egypt, Syria and Jordan in which it took the West Bank, Solana said mediators should set a timetable for a peace agreement.
"If the parties are not able to stick to it (the timetable), then a solution backed by the international community should be put on the table," he said.
The EU, along with the United States, Russia and the United Nations, is part of the Quartet of Middle East Negotiators.
pilau
Nomad
No6, huh? Now there's a status I'd like to have!
Hell! Now I can't read spoilers on my cellphone
Back on topic, Forostar - I personally disagree with this solution. An imposed or UN-enforced solution will cause bitterness on both sides because both will belive the solution is not enough and that it took away their option/ability to achive a better solution on their own. I feel that both sides should, however how hard it is, do whatever they can to achieve a peaceful agreement on their own, otherwise the wounds won't heal and thus the conflict wouldn't really end. This is how I and I'm certain that if I ask people here they will react the same way.
Hell! Now I can't read spoilers on my cellphone
Back on topic, Forostar - I personally disagree with this solution. An imposed or UN-enforced solution will cause bitterness on both sides because both will belive the solution is not enough and that it took away their option/ability to achive a better solution on their own. I feel that both sides should, however how hard it is, do whatever they can to achieve a peaceful agreement on their own, otherwise the wounds won't heal and thus the conflict wouldn't really end. This is how I and I'm certain that if I ask people here they will react the same way.