Official Hockey discussion thread

As I said in the madness forum, he just made the entire wings better. Modano as your THIRD line center? Holy Crap, he might be old, but he still scores goals and he can still pass the puck... I'm looking forward to it even though it is kinda tiring to see the wings in the final all the time lol
 
The Wings love reclamation projects. Look at Mike Vernon, Todd Bertuzzi, Dan Cleary…they've done okay in those departments!
 
So I was reading Salanne's decision to come back: http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=535672, but what caught my attention was what he said towards the end: A possible reunion with Kariya... Though Kariya is not as effective as in his younger days, elite players are elite players and a like of Koivu, Salanne and Kariya would be really interesting. They should call it "The dinosaur line," lol. The Golden Oldies showing the kids how it's done would be awesome.
Ok, so today is the 20th anniversary of the Gretzky trade from the Oilers to the Kings. There are a ton of articles about how the trade changed the game forever.... for the better. While they don't say it out right all the articles are talking about the benefits of the trade and how it helped grow the game in non-traditional markets.

Well I'm here to talk about how much that sucks. First of all, if the trade showed anything is how much Gretzky SUCKED without his beloved Oilers. was he a great player? Of course, not denying that, he did help the Kings to the final practically single-handedly. However the Messier-led Oilers won again in 1990 AND Messier won AGAIN in NY... without Gretzky and without the oilers... Now THAT'S a great player.

Not to mention what is so great about growing the sport in nontraditional markets? Of all the canadian teams only Ott is a "recent" expansion team yet Winnipeg and Quebec have been relocated. Not to mention Quebec was on the cusp of being a force to be reckon with (the Avs won 8 division titles in a row and two Stanley Cups with their core). On the other hand what the hell have the Florida Panthers done? SQUAT. Sure Tampa and Carolina have won cups, but Carolina did it on the back of a moved franchise (I still miss the Whalers and so does Hartford) and Tampa's was a happy accident since they haven't tasted similar success since, unlike Carolina that has been a decent club with relative playoff success.

While Colorado at least gets snow, would it have killed the NHL to give Seattle a team again? How about Halifax? Does NY or Cali really need three teams? Hell Florida has two and they both suck ass and haven't done anything to "grow the market." Neither has Phoenix for that matter. The only reason people loved the Coyotes last season was because they started winning... Oh, WITHOUT Gretzky as their coach. There is no loyalty in non-traditional markets. In traditional markets people go to the games because they love the GAME. Sure who wouldn't want to have a winning team, but going to the a game is also something to do. Just like High School football games on Friday nights in small towns, so is hockey in traditional markets.

Gary Bettman has turned the NHL into a NBA clone and his mistakes are finally starting to show. Sure Gretzky make hockey cool in Cali, but what Florida and Phoenix have shown is that only because a city has over 2 million people it doesn't mean 20,000 of them are going to go see your games. quote unquote smaller markets like Winnipeg and Quebec filled those stadiums with considerably smaller populations.  Not a single Canadian city has the population of the American cities housing NHL teams, yet games manage to be sold out.

Another thing that pisses me off is the focus on mindless offense. I say this, because every Aug 9th people wonder if this is the year somebody hits or breaks the 92 goal mark. Gretzky one thought that Crosby would do it, but now thinks it will be Ovi. Sure Ovi scores more goals, BUT he shoots upwards of 400 shots per season. He's playing the "one of them is bound to go in" game.

Lemieux had a 19% career shot average, Gretzky had a 17%... both their averages would be considerably higher had it not been for their last 3 seasons. Ovi... in his young career is averaging 12% and has never shot UNDER 350 shots. Crosby's average is 14% and has never shot OVER 300... My verdict is neither will break it unless Ovi becomes more efficient or Crosby starts shooting more. 
 
The fact that Mess was able to win twice without Gretzky is a fact that I love. The Moose may not have put up the gawdy numbers that Gretz did, but he was able to deliver when it came time. Plus being 2nd all time is'nt so bad. I loved it when they teamed back up in NY ..that was one of the most epic things.
Yeah, the fact that Bettman tried to grow the game in non traditional markets was not a good idea. But worse was making a 24 team league into a 30 team league.
 
Nigel Tufnel said:
The fact that Mess was able to win twice without Gretzky is a fact that I love. The Moose may not have put up the gawdy numbers that Gretz did, but he was able to deliver when it came time. Plus being 2nd all time is'nt so bad. I loved it when they teamed back up in NY ..that was one of the most epic things.
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I understand on an intellectual level that Messier is one of the all-time greats... but as a Vancouver fan I just can never let that sink in. I don't think I can ever respect him like he should be respected. He raped us when he was in Edmonton.  He raped us when he was in NY. And he raped us when he played for us.

Most players I hate I can at least respect after they retire if they were truly one of the greats. Never Messier  :bigsmile: .

On a side note, I love that I joined this forum to talk about the Final Frontier... and already one of my two posts has been about hockey. Ah, to be a Canadian....
 
Good man! There's always a shortage of Canadians around here. Even if they are lousy Canuck fans. :D

Moose is one of the greats. He has been an ambassador for the game and a good heart. But. I totally understand why Canuck fans will hate him. He definitely did nothing for them when he played for them, and 94 and the Oil-Nucks rivalry would be hard to let go.

What do you think of the NHL looking into Luongo's contract?
 
Hey LC, is Luongos contract front loaded as well. I know it is 12 years for 64 million, i don't know the details beyond that.
 
According to NHL.com they are looking into SEVERAL long-term contracts. I think what raised eyebrows in the Kovy deal was not so much the length, (Ovi got a 15 year deal) but the AGE at which his contract ended making it blatantly obvious they were going to pay him a buck (slight exageration) for his last 4 seasons. Luongo COULD play until his 40...
 
Hossa, Luongo, and Pronger. The Pronger one I am fine with. Chris will play until he drops, I think. He's tough and strong enough to go all the way, unless there is an injury. Luongo MIGHT play that long, but I doubt it. He won't be worth a 6 million cap hit when he's 39.

That's my biggest problem with these deals. They are good now, but they kill a team if the player keeps playing.
 
Not only that. I hate that GMs pretend to have a Crystal ball and know that not only will they play that long, but at an elite level. That's what bothers me about the Ovi deal. They expect him to play like he is playing now in 15 years? Yeah right, what Power Forward has had a PRODUCTIVE 15 year career? Um NONE.
 
I don't know if anything will come of it, to be honest. To re-neg at this point (a year after signing) they would need some VERY strong evidence of collusion (an email or transcript of a phone call where either Gillis or Luongo's agent says, "he will retire before the last few years of the contract"). I mean there's a lot of business aspects to take into account. They've already sold seasons tickets, they've already paid Luongo a large signing bonus, not to mention the cap and competitive effects. I think this is as much about the league sending a message to the other teams about where exactly the line is, lest a Charles Wang give out a 100 year, 100 million dollar contract at a cap hit of 1M/YR.

In terms of whether it's "cheating"... well that's up in the air I guess. It certainly does give advantage to teams with real dollars to spend above the cap (the Canucks *actual* dollars spent next year will be significantly above their cap number... as were the Flyers last year). But I'm not the biggest fan of a hard-cap system to begin with. Perhaps a NBA model would work better? (A cap exemption for a certain number of 'francise players' on each team) I think the biggest fall-out of this is going to be how it effects the next CBA negotiation. I don't think I could survive another lock-out.

In terms of how I feel about these types of deals themselves as fan of a team that carries one... I don't mind them, and would be upset if the league did overturn any of them (which seems ludicrous at this point. Are they going to overturn the Hossa deal too? Does Chicago have to give their cup back?) There a few things that I think get ignored with these long term deals. People tend to assume that late in the contract the 5.3/season will be an albatross, but all you need to do is look at inflation, which has a significant effect on the cap over the course of 12 years (the length of the Luongo deal, for instance). Think of it this way: because of inflation, one dollar worth of stuff 1998 would cost you $1.34 today.  The cap is tied to league revenues, and as inflation increases so will ticket prices, so will league revenes, so will the cap. Even if the league doesn't make any more 'real' money, the value of the cap will continue to escalate. But Luongo in 2022 (when his contract is up) will still be getting paid at a 2010 rate. 5.3 million is a lot, *in 2010 dollars*.  In 2022 5.3 million will be a far smaller portion of the cap than it is today. Which is why I don't have such a *huge* problem with the idea of a 41 year old luongo playing 20 games for 5.3 of our cap. If the cap is 85 million (random figure), then it's not so much of a problem.

Wow. Didn't intend to get so wound up there. Can you tell that I've debated the merits of these super deals with other fans before?  ;)
 
Ha, I love that you mention Wang, after all he is the loon that started the trend of insanely long contracts and also prime example as to why NOT to do them and why they don't matter. Yashin signed a  10 year contract after leaving OTT and at the time was a big deal, few if any contracts of the kind. Did Yashin play those 10 years? No, the team simply bought him out and he now is a force in the KHL. So what's the point of such a long contract if it has no bearing on job security? Exhibit B is DiPietro. His was what? 12? 15 years? When was the last time he played a full season? Sure he's good when healthy, but how often has that happened? It's forced NYI to shore up up to 3 other legit #1 contenders "just in case." That is hurting your team, He is a burden in more ways than one. So any contract over 5 years is just stupid IMO.
 
LOTS going on in the off-season! So, the NHL continues to investigate the contracts of Marian Hossa, Chris Pronger, Roberto Luongo and Marc Savard as all of their salaries dramatically dip on or around their last year of contract.

Also, RDO camp is looking into changes on Face-Offs and icings. The Hybrid Icing which is left up to the lineman is gaining support while, thankfully, no-touch icing is being spurned.
 
RDO camp is Shanahan's brainchild. This guy is going to be great for hockey. He really gets it. Hybrid icing might be a solution to the icing issue. Unfortunately, I'm still worried people will get hurt. I'll have to see it in action before I decide what I prefer.
 
I'm torn, because I think races for the puck are what separate NHL hockey from the rest of the world, but at the same time it is dangerous.

Shanahan will be in the hall of fame for more than his playing career, that's for sure. He was also key in the new CBA.
 
I remember in the early and mid 80's the linesman had discretion to call an icing if it was obvious that the attacking team was going to win the race for the puck. But I think that was more in the interest of keeping the flow of the game going.
 
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