Your Maiden blasphemy

[CriedWhenBrucieLeft]

The Trooper especially benefits from this, since it gives the harmony a bit more texture, largely thanks to Adrian's playing.

Somebody can correct me here, but I'm pretty sure Dave & Adrian are playing their original harmonies & Janick plays the new higher harmony. Live, it certainly sounds like Janick.

Again, this default assumption of the forum seems to be anything that's better must be Adrian. Is it though?

 

[soundwave]

I feel like the exact opposite, honestly. Dual harmony + rhythm guitar feels like a waste of a perfectly good guitar player to me, unless the harmony is very specific in such a way that it'd probably not be improved with the addition of a third harmonizing guitar. Everywhere else three guitars makes for a richer, better sounding harmony section. The Trooper especially benefits from this, since it gives the harmony a bit more texture, largely thanks to Adrian's playing.

Caught Somewhere in Time is probably the biggest obvious exception, I can't see that harmony working as a three-part, and especially not considering that would mean no rhythm guitar to hold it together (it always sounded kinda weird live to me).

Agreed on CSIT. Most of the time, I don't mind when it's just Steve and Nicko holding it down live during the harmonies, but CSIT always felt a bit empty to me live with out the corresponding rhythm guitar galloping along. Wish I could hear this one live in the 'three amigos era' (as long as Janick doesn't take a solo).

 

[Gk1]

Somebody can correct me here, but I'm pretty sure Dave & Adrian are playing their original harmonies & Janick plays the new higher harmony. Live, it certainly sounds like Janick.

Again, this default assumption of the forum seems to be anything that's better must be Adrian. Is it though?

It is not easy to tell by the e.g En Vivo video. It might as well be Janick. I however get why we mostly expect H to be the one. I mean he is always the one to add a melody, or a phrase, or something extra. (At least in the "Re-union" songs.

 

[Gk1]

You know, I don't think triple harmony even sounds that good, especially if the song doesn't call for it. For instance, I liked the Trooper harmony better with just two guitars

Double harmony + rhythm guitar is a good use of 3 guitar players

To be honest with you in most songs they do not even harmonize anymore. Let's say that having a rhythm guitar as a concept is not all bad. In my opinion doing "octave dabbling" instead of a real "harmony" is something I don't get. Yet again H tried to do it in some show over The red and the black and Speed of light (both of them live) and it sounded so much better.
Please have a listen here...

on 2m13sec

and then just picture the whole melody done that way. Or even better ALL the new song melodies played that way........To me it sounds so much better and "classic" Maiden.

 

[ghkghk]

Run to th Hills is not a Top 50 Maiden song. It wouldn't even make my top 100.

A Matter of Life and Death is Maiden's only album where all their songs are really good.

Como estáis amigos is Virtual XI best song.

Half of Maiden's most underrated songs are from TFF. Starblind, Isle of Avalon, WTWWB and The Talisman. The other four being The Loneliness, Duellists, To Tame a Land and Judgement of heaven.

Killers is close to Virtual XI as their worst album.

I like Gers live.

Monchild and CIPWM are what separates Seventh son from being perfect.

 

[eddie666]

But just go through the fast paced and breathtaking Be Quick or be dead track and then go through any of the post 2000 "fast songs". There is no comparison sound wise, energy wise, structure wise, and in most cases playing wise. It is a pity if you ask me. Maiden can offer so much more cause they still got brilliant ideas. I however find it disturbing that Bruce and H are so much better outside Maiden. Even the Rock Rebel Rebellion album, I thought had amazing music by H. (Justin's vocals were kind of overwhelming for my liking.)

Such is life. Sad but true.
It's like a rocket firework. The initial 5 albums are hugely exciting as the rocket rises at considerable speed(Ooh!) culminating in an agreeable explosion(Ahh!) with PS-7th. Then the fall begins and disappointment sets in, but we still have strong directional movement with Prayer-VXI. Hitting and bouncing around on the ground are the reunion records, incorporating small rises and falls, but nowhere near the excitement/disappointment of before, thus everything becoming just ok.
Finally we stop all movement and die. Hello Bos.

Personal opinion will determine which part someone prefers(and which band it's applied to), but after the initial spring rise it's a corruption of the purity of the original premise.

 

[Gk1]

But still, it only takes an average producer to actually tell Maiden that they need to have a few more takes for a better result. It is not rocket science...they've done for 12 years until 1992.

 

[Forostar]

It took them 15 years to make a good use of the three guitars in "If Eternity should fail". For once Janick did not play a melody for Bruce to sing along.

Is this so exceptional? By the way, I know it is not a sing-along melody but did you realize that Janick (and no one else!) does play the melody in the pre-chorus. How do you like that?

Have you noticed that on the Book of Souls tour, it turned out that Adrian and Janick are doing most two guitar harmonies in new songs? Dave took over the backing guitar role behind these harmonies. This includes Speed of Light in pre-chorus and in IESF, there is also no two guitar harmony in which Dave takes part. TRATB same thing. Death or Glory: same thing: A and J do the harmony before the first solo. I think Janick and Dave do the harmonies in the fast part of The Book of Souls (Adrian rhythm guitar). That's the only exception.

 

[Gk1]

Is this so exceptional? By the way, I know it is not a sing-along melody but did you realize that Janick (and no one else!) does play the melody in the pre-chorus. How do you like that?

Have you noticed that on the Book of Souls tour, it turned out that Adrian and Janick are doing most two guitar harmonies in new songs? Dave took over the backing guitar role behind these harmonies.

Yep, you are right.

Janick however did the "guitar follows the voice" thing on too many occasions over the last 15 years' albums. Both on his own songs or other people's songs. Whether this pattern was initially suggested by him or not doesn't really bother me. I feel it is not a good way to utilize a guitar player. On the other hand this gets very irritating (for me) in When the wild wind blows. (3 minutes of my life I'll never get back), and The red and the black. (Bruce just shouting out words struggling while nothing happens......while Janick is jumping around playing childish melodies).

 

[Forostar]

Yep, you are right.

Janick however did the "guitar follows the voice" thing on too many occasions over the last 15 years' albums. Both on his own songs or other people's songs. Whether this pattern was initially suggested by him or not doesn't really bother me. I feel it is not a good way to utilize a guitar player.

Or singer. Perhaps he is following the guitar. Basically both voice and guitar follow the melody that was made up. When Janick and/or Harris co-wrote, you can bet they made up the melody and Bruce has to follow that. So let's not turn things around.

Somebody can correct me here, but I'm pretty sure Dave & Adrian are playing their original harmonies & Janick plays the new higher harmony. Live, it certainly sounds like Janick.

Again, this default assumption of the forum seems to be anything that's better must be Adrian. Is it though?

No, Adrian does the higher part. I saw him doing that numerous times. You can also hear it's Adrian pressing the snare like that. Here you see Janick holding his left hand low on the neck and you see Adrian moved up higher.

It seems I got to the core of the thread's purpose after all Even if people don't like these songs, I think we can all agree that there are no spare, repetitive parts in there.

No repetitive parts in Machine Men? No repetitiveness in Killing Floor? Sure.

 

[matic22]

Is this so exceptional? By the way, I know it is not a sing-along melody but did you realize that Janick (and no one else!) does play the melody in the pre-chorus. How do you like that?

Have you noticed that on the Book of Souls tour, it turned out that Adrian and Janick are doing most two guitar harmonies in new songs? Dave took over the backing guitar role behind these harmonies. This includes Speed of Light in pre-chorus and in IESF, there is also no two guitar harmony in which Dave takes part. TRATB same thing. Death or Glory: same thing: A and J do the harmony before the first solo. I think Janick and Dave do the harmonies in the fast part of The Book of Souls (Adrian rhythm guitar). That's the only exception.

Dave plays about 16 bars of harmony in TBOS (song). Speaking of the new songs I really like what H did on one of the new songs live. I think it should have been done on the album too, but because the album was a bit rushed they couldn't do those little touches.

 

[Gk1]

Or singer. Perhaps he is following the guitar. Basically both voice and guitar follow the melody that was made up. When Janick and/or Harris co-wrote, you can bet they made up the melody and Bruce has to follow that. So let's not turn things around.

I just described what is happening and how they arrange things nowadays. It doesn't really matter who tells whom to do what....just that it happens quite often in their songs

No repetitive parts in Machine Men? No repetitiveness in Killing Floor? Sure.

No I don't think there is anything excessive there. Or just to put it a different way. I don't think that anyone in their right mind would listen to The Wickerman and then to any of the before mentioned songs, and decides that the latter are repetitive.

 

[Ruflux]

Dave plays about 16 bars of harmony in TBOS (song). Speaking of the new songs I really like what H did on one of the new songs live. I think it should have been done on the album too, but because the album was a bit rushed they couldn't do those little touches.

I definitely agree that all the little guitar things H added should've been on the album, but at the same time I think those little additions and all the other small changes they made to the TBOS material was largely because of the lengthy gap between them being recorded and being rehearsed and played live. So realistically even if they had taken their time those things wouldn't have been on the album in any case.

 

[Gk1]

I definitely agree that all the little guitar things H added should've been on the album, but at the same time I think those little additions and all the other small changes they made to the TBOS material was largely because of the lengthy gap between them being recorded and being rehearsed and played live. So realistically even if they had taken their time those things wouldn't have been on the album in any case.

Not sure about that. This is open to interpretations. However we will never know as noone would ever ask them.

 

[jazz from hell]

For the most part I agree with Gk 1, especially in respect to the annoying unisons of guitar & voice melodies. But the live-in-the-studio approach is just great; it has served them very well imo, and the result is way more interesting than the usual perfect-and-boring productions you hear in most Metal. The problem is in the arrangements of those 3 guitars, not in the sloppyness of playing, imo. 3 guitars are probably a difficult number to mix as well (left, right, but the middle one masks the other important elements there, like the voice).

I also don't see why all 3 guitars have to play all the time. It would make for a more dynamic and interesting sound if one or two of them (even three!) took a break from time to time.

 

[Forostar]

They do not play all the time. At least not on all live numbers. For instance, in The Clansman and Fear of the Dark, Adrian doesn't do much in the beginning.

 

[jazz from hell]

That makes about 2 minutes in a whole concert; they don't play The Clansman live. And why never in the distorted guitar parts?

 

[Forostar]

I'm reading that people complain Maiden don't do enough with guitars, and now that they do too much.

There are more moments in songs where guitarists sit out for a while. E.g. there is an awesome key moment in Lord of Light where Adrian does something with Steve. The rest is silent. Dave does that with Steve e.g. in Heaven Can Wait, Number of the Beast and Sign of the Cross. There's more, you just need to pay attention.

And why never in the distorted guitar parts?

What would improve? Could you point out a particular moment in a song where you'd like to see a change? That would make it easier to see what you mean.

 

[jazz from hell]

Number of the Beast is actually a good example, where it really works. Then again, after the intro scream all 3 of them play constantly for the rest of the song -- and the intro remains the best part.

If we take Fear of the Dark, how about just 2 guitars after the intro in the verses, then 3 in the choruses? Or 1 in the first verse and chorus, 2 in the second verse and 3 in the 2nd chorus? Of course it could be more subtle if they thought about it before recording in the studio, when arranging the songs. Less mud guaranteed, as well as more dynamics; certainly would serve their more progressive songs. IMO.

 

[Forostar]

Number of the Beast is actually a good example, where it really works. Then again, after the intro scream all 3 of them play constantly for the rest of the song -- and the intro remains the best part.

What would you like to see changed?

If we take Fear of the Dark, how about just 2 guitars after the intro in the verses, then 3 in the choruses? Or 1 in the first verse and chorus, 2 in the second verse and 3 in the 2nd chorus? Of course it could be more subtle if they thought about it before recording in the studio, when arranging the songs. Less mud guaranteed, as well as more dynamics; certainly would serve their more progressive songs. IMO.

The idea of having only one guitar in a whole verse and chorus sounds very odd. Don't you think it would sound weaker, sonically?

It works in a build-up, such in Number of the Beast when Dave starts and Adrian joins, and in the magnificent section in Rime after the calm mid. But in a straightforward verse or chorus...? Maiden like to sound full during these moments. Guitarists don't always do the same. Brave New World is probably the best example where they all do different things in the verses.

In Public Enema Number One there are different rhythm guitars in the verses. Makes it interesting. On the Powerslave album Adrian went more for the longer, open chords (in The Duellists and Rime) while Dave played as fast as Steve. On Somewhere in Time, Adrian waves patterns throughout his rhythm playing.