Your Maiden blasphemy

Jer said:
Your straw man argument is in serious need of some brains. Perhaps it could follow the yellow brick road to get a diploma from @Black Wizard ? :p
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No strawman there, it's the corollary of your position. If Janick is factually sloppy and therefore that is proof that he is bad, then the opposite must also be true that boring text book guitar playing with little or no imagination or individuality must be good.
 
Yes and that is certainly not true for the general audience. People into guitars might appreciate textbook shred but it is nothing more than a technical gimmick. Besides Janick can play very fast and very precise and he's the most proficient alternate picker out of the three.


3:25
 
Saphrax said:
That TMWWK’s arrangement is a masterpiece should be a given.

The genius of the song is how subtly they transition into every change. It’s prog af and I can’t hear an out of time or off key note in the studio version. From the balladic intro to the building crescendoes of the first verse on to Harry’s 16th note cadence culminating into an anthemic chorus that decelerates gracefully into the lilting bridge where the bass is still speeding along but the guitars’ slower tempos (would I be crucified here for giving a favorable comparison to the style of John Frusciante? Perhaps) give the music a strobe light effect (if one can visualize music) followed by the startling yet fluid uptempo time change, all layered over Nicko’s click track precise tempo. Notice also how on time Bruce’s vocals are in delivering lyrics written in a trochaic pentameter that would leave lesser vocalists stuttering.

TMWWBK is definitely an acquired taste musically, like most of TFF; but I’d call it a successfully executed song overall.


While I wouldn’t want Maiden to set TMWWBK as the band’s whole stylistic direction, I think it’s infinitely better than any track on The X Factor.
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TMWWBK is one of the weirdest Maiden songs out there. It’s very unique, yes, and I think in a way it’s cool, but ultimately the verses are what bring it down for me and make it one of my least favorites.
 
Saphrax said:
Wow, memorable show. Did you see what the guy did or just note the interruption to the song?
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I wasn't on the floor, but I'm pretty sure the guy pulled a younger girl off of the rail, possibly even striking her.
 
Collin said:
I wasn't on the floor, but I'm pretty sure the guy pulled a younger girl off of the rail, possibly even striking her.
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What a goober. To hear Bruce tell it, I’d expect to see eight security guards escorting Jabba the Hutt out of there.

As much as I like Vegas, I dislike the Mandalay as a concert venue because the single entrance creates too long of a line just to get in and the seating’s too cramped.
 
Saphrax said:
What a goober. To hear Bruce tell it, I’d expect to see eight security guards escorting Jabba the Hutt out of there.

As much as I like Vegas, I dislike the Mandalay as a concert venue because the single entrance creates too long of a line just to get in and the seating’s too cramped.
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Yeah I don't like Mandalay much either. The T-Mobile Arena was a pretty cool venue, I'm not sure how the MGM arena will go, I've never been there before.
 
srfc said:
No strawman there, it's the corollary of your position.
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Nope, sorry.
If Janick is factually sloppy and therefore that is proof that he is bad
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Logical fallacy #1. I said quite clearly that “good” and “bad” were subjective, and that it was entirely possible to think that something sloppy was good. I happen to like Dave Mustaine’s vocals for the music he plays, but I would never confuse that with meaning that he’s a strong technical singer, because he’s not.
then the opposite must also be true that boring text book guitar playing with little or no imagination or individuality must be good.
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Logical fallacy #2. Even if we assumed your earlier comment was true (which it’s not), the opposite of sloppiness is not textbook with no imagination or individuality. To go back to my analog in writing, that would be like positing that anything written with correct spelling, grammar, and punctuation must automatically be devoid of imagination or individuality, which is immediately and obviously wrong, since that would include pretty much every great novel and screenplay.

So yes, it was a straw man (two, actually), and no, you’re still wrong. Sorry.
 
Number 6 said:
Didn't know that there were rules for writing music and playing solos.
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Silly me, that must be why no one tunes their guitars or makes any attempt for the bass, drums, guitar, and vocals to ever line up on strong beats. What on earth was I thinking?
 
CriedWhenBrucieLeft said:
Why are you framing it like this though? i.e. Janick is one thing & the rest of the band is something else, "royalty". He's not just some bit-part of Maiden.
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For me Janick is like your dad’s annoying second wife. Family gatherings used to be great until dad got remarried, and now this other person is always there, blathering on about nonsense, talking over people, drinking too much, and stumbling over the furniture.

Sure, she occasionally cracks a good joke, or has a moment of kindness or insight that makes you think twice; but before you know it she’s right back to her old annoying habits, and you have no choice but to tolerate her while secretly hoping that your dad will someday come to his senses and show her the door.

Meanwhile, your cousins all seem to love her and think she’s the life of the party, and you wonder what planet they’re from.
 
You might be correct but that does not apply here - Gers doesn't deal with off beat atonal solos. Might wanna look up Kerry King for that ;) The sporadic sloppy performance that's rooted in sacrificing guitar control to keep his physical energy on level, the I won't stop jumping and fully concentrate on the guitar because r'n'r, you might not like that, I certainly don't sometimes, depending on how bad he "fucks up" especially if it's Smith's solo in question. And the most important thing is that he isn't the only one or even the biggest name to be accused of doing such a thing, Blackmore is one of the most technically proficient out of that entire epic generation and he'd fuck up live solos in the same manner too. 1984 live DVD -> Gypsy's Kiss -> went to headbang too hard and completely butchered the arpeggios, for instance. Not uncommon.
 
Jer said:
Silly me, that must be why no one tunes their guitars or makes any attempt for the bass, drums, guitar, and vocals to ever line up on strong beats. What on earth was I thinking?
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Those aren't rules. People generally do those things because it's been established by trial and error that they work. It doesn't mean something else can't work just as well.
 
Saphrax said:
TMWWBK is definitely an acquired taste musically, like most of TFF; but I’d call it a successfully executed song overall.


While I wouldn’t want Maiden to set TMWWBK as the band’s whole stylistic direction, I think it’s infinitely better than any track on The X Factor.
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In my mind to say something is perfectly executed makes more sense in a live scene. I don't think it is possible for Maiden to play TMWWBK live, there is that backward solo.
There are parts I love about that song, and parts that are awkward. It's not a great song.
But in saying there are bad parts to that song, I could easily say there are bad parts to each and every song on X factor and Virtual XI.

For me, I have removed those two albums from my I Pod, it makes putting Iron Maiden on random mode a much better experience for me.
 
Black Abyss Babe said:
Those aren't rules. People generally do those things because it's been established by trial and error that they work. It doesn't mean something else can't work just as well.
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I see. So they’re...guidelines...that people follow that have been well established by collective experience to be effective. Perhaps we should establish some of these...carefully worded ideas...for things like driving, or interpersonal etiquette, so we don’t get ourselves into trouble by doing things that don’t work. Perhaps we could even call them “principles of the road” or “suggestions of etiquette”.

I have to say, these specifically-worded concepts rule!
 
Number 6 said:
Music is completely subjective. What sounds bad to you won't for somebody else. It's completely okay not to like something, but to maintain that a specific style or technique is objectively wrong is just ridiculous.
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I really enjoy reaching the part of a discussion where people have completely stopped responding to what you actually said, and are instead responding to some bizarre emotionalized caricature of what they presume you meant. For example:
Jer said:
“Good” or “bad” is a matter of opinion. Performing in or out of key, or staying on rhythm, or doing any other objectively measurable thing is not a matter of opinion, no matter how much you might want it to be. It’s whether those objective elements bother you or not that’s a matter of opinion.
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Jer said:
I said quite clearly that “good” and “bad” were subjective, and that it was entirely possible to think that something sloppy was good. I happen to like Dave Mustaine’s vocals for the music he plays, but I would never confuse that with meaning that he’s a strong technical singer, because he’s not.
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As you can see, it helps to read what I actually wrote.

Perhaps your straw man and @srfc ’s could have a play date.
 
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