Your Maiden blasphemy

Randalf said:
Well, while I really like Janick, that is definitely a beach statement.
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That's how I look up the things, you don't have to agree with me. :p

Janick is a very underrated as a guitarist, I should also add. I like his style of playing a lot (which no one can replicate!). He's a fantastic songwriter too, let's not forget that. Sure Dave is the sound of Maiden (because he was there from the first album and the trademark melodies/harmonies of Maiden are started from his playing, just listen to Prowler and you will see why he is such an important member to the Maiden essential sound) with Adrian, who is the best guitarist out of the three amigos, but Janick also earned his place in the legendary history of the band. He is my favorite guitarist from the band, but I shall admit he is not the best one. Though, he has written only one or two bad songs for Maiden and some of his reunion era songs are better than Dave's or Adrian's.
 
Kalata said:
That's how I look up the things, you don't have to agree with me. :p

Janick is a very underrated as a guitarist, I should also add. I like his style of playing a lot (which no one can replicate!). He's a fantastic songwriter too, let's not forget that.
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I do agree about that, he's definitely a very capable player and I really enjoy his work, live too, quite often. I also like some of his solos a lot, Lord of The Flies for example. And he is indeed a great songwriter too. But to say he's never sloppy live is a quite a statement indeed, since his looser style of playing does lead up to... occasionally rather... artistic efforts. I enjoy his playing a lot and while the line between sloppy and loose might sometiems be hard to define, I think he's definitely a bit sloppy here and there, but it's just part of his approach to playing live and personally, it does not really bother me. While he never really "breaks" any song by throwing in more or less "loose" solo, for example, it's not like he's always spot-on either... (Moonchild, Revelations...)

But as said, that's his approach and I can see why some fans are annoyed by some of his traits, but he never bothers me. I like him.
 
Randalf said:
I do agree about that, he's definitely a very capable player and I really enjoy his work, live too, quite often. I also like some of his solos a lot, Lord of The Flies for example. And he is indeed a great songwriter too. But to say he's never sloppy live is a quite a statement indeed, since his looser style of playing does lead up to... occasionally rather... artistic efforts. I enjoy his playing a lot and while the line between sloppy and loose might sometiems be hard to define, I think he's definitely a bit sloppy here and there, but it's just part of his approach to playing live and personally, it does not really bother me. While he never really "breaks" any song by throwing in more or less "loose" solo, for example, it's not like he's always spot-on either... (Moonchild, Revelations...)

But as said, that's his approach and I can see why some fans are annoyed by some of his traits, but he never bothers me. I like him.
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And to add one more thing: he likes to improvise live on stage. On the Flight 666 documentary has been said that he don't like to play the same thing twice. He has proven that he can play Adrian's solos just like him (the studio versions), but all three of them changes solos live, especially Dave recently. And also I think Janick does these little melodies on intros or through the whole song (for example in NML, TRATB, WTWWB, TBOS, DOD etc....), on the reunion era albums. So, kudos to him for that.
 
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Randalf said:
I do agree about that, he's definitely a very capable player and I really enjoy his work, live too, quite often. I also like some of his solos a lot, Lord of The Flies for example. And he is indeed a great songwriter too. But to say he's never sloppy live is a quite a statement indeed, since his looser style of playing does lead up to... occasionally rather... artistic efforts. I enjoy his playing a lot and while the line between sloppy and loose might sometiems be hard to define, I think he's definitely a bit sloppy here and there, but it's just part of his approach to playing live and personally, it does not really bother me. While he never really "breaks" any song by throwing in more or less "loose" solo, for example, it's not like he's always spot-on either... (Moonchild, Revelations...)

But as said, that's his approach and I can see why some fans are annoyed by some of his traits, but he never bothers me. I like him.
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I agree with this as a whole. I don’t think he’s written a bad song with the band and his solos in studio aren’t bad whatsoever. Live is a bit hit-or-miss, but nothing is offensive to my ears. He’s solid.
 
Diesel 11 said:
My only point in this whole thing is that sloppiness is subjective, but Black Abyss Babe already summed it up quite well...
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Black Abyss Babe said:
"Sloppiness" is in no way a clearly defined term with a unique, unambiguous meaning. It is a derogatory term, generally used to imply that something which is clearly defined is being done badly or in a half-arsed fashion.
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sloppiness (n): Lack of care and organization; excessive casualness.

care (n): Serious attention or consideration applied to doing something correctly or to avoid damage or risk.

organization (n): The quality of being systematic and efficient.

casual (adj): 1. Made or done without much thought or premeditation. 2. Done or acting without sufficient care or thoroughness.

So, effectively, sloppiness is a measure of how incorrectly or haphazardly something is done. In the abstract I think the concept is quite clear.

I’ve already covered the types of things that can be objectively measured for correctness when playing an instrument. Those are direct measurements of how sloppy the playing is, and they’re unambiguous. As mentioned before, what’s subjective is whether those things bother you or not.

Many of the factors contributing to sloppiness are measurable and objective. It’s what a specific person considers to be “too sloppy” or “too clinical” that is personal and subjective.

What part of this is confusing or controversial?
 
CriedWhenBrucieLeft said:
Jer, if your serious point here is that Janick is sloppy in the studio then you're talking bollocks.
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Go listen to Janick’s solo in “Montsegur” closely and tell me that again with a straight face. I gave plenty of other examples as well:
Jer said:
His solos from “Sign Of The Cross”, “Judgement Of Heaven”, “The Edge Of Darkness”, “No More Lies”, “Montsegur”, “Gates Of Tomorrow”, and “The Alchemist” would beg to differ with you.
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Jer said:
So, effectively, sloppiness is a measure of how incorrectly or haphazardly something is done. In the abstract I think the concept is quite clear.
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So by your interpretation as well as mine, you need to be sure what is being attempted before you can decide it's being done badly. Now, neither Steve nor any of his other bandmates have any issue with Janick's playing (in the studio or live), otherwise Steve would have reigned him in ages ago. Therefore we must assume that he plays the way he does because that's what is intended - hence it can't be sloppy.

I appreciate that you really, really dislike Janick's playing style, and that's fine: you can't like everything. And I appreciate that it must be comforting for you to believe that there's an absolute standard enshrined somewhere that renders your opinions more valid than everyone elses. But there isn't, so please stop trying to turn this into some kind of moral crusade.

However, I find your continual sneering completely intolerable so as of now I have you on ignore: hence I officially don't care what if anything you have to say in response to this. Goodbye.
 
While I disagree about many things with @Jer and I do think - with respect - that his edge might be a bit too negative, if not really offensive, at least he clearly explains why he doesn't like Janick's playing and arguments he made are pretty solid indeed. Then again, as many, myself included, have pointed out, some of them might be rather controversial, most noticeably when pondering Janick's work in studio, where the line between loose shredding and being sloppy and playing out of tune is rather thin, since it often serves some purpose and is more or less deliberate and sometimes there's indeed room for breaking the rules; how it turns out is naturally a different matter.

I like to think that the whole like or dislike Janick thing comes down to whether one tolerates and likes his approach to performing music or not; it's a pretty wild one indeed, but when listening to his thoughts and looking at his songwriting efforts (not all of them are pure gold, but you get the point) it's not like he appears to be "mindless shredder" either. It's just that his approach is less precise and more "on the edge", as Bruce appropriately described a while ago. It's undoubtedly irritating to some, I get that, and @Jer wrote it down pretty well, in my opinion, even though I disagree about some of his points here and there and I don't find his tone too nice. Then again, it might be just me being overly diplomatic. :D

Peace out.
 
KidInTheDark666 said:
During The Angel and The Gambler.
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I can imagine it. The song starting with Bruce singing, then on the first calm repetition of the chorus ... Blaze walking on stage, while taking over the singing.

During the guitar solo, Bruce running around while Blaze shouts "come on!", then the two of them finish the song as a duet.

Beautiful.

Then Paul Di'Anno joining in for a trio singing Wrathchild.
 
Dr. Eddies Wingman said:
I can imagine it. The song starting with Bruce singing, then on the first calm repetition of the chorus ... Blaze walking on stage, while taking over the singing.

During the guitar solo, Bruce running around while Blaze shouts "come on!", then the two of them finish the song as a duet.

Beautiful.

Then Paul Di'Anno joining in for a trio singing Wrathchild.
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And not a dry eye in the house :D.
 
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