D
Deleted member 7164
Guest
"American troops cannot and should not be fighting in a war and dying in a war that Afghan forces are not willing to fight for themselves." - President Biden
Maybe some people are fucking sick and tired of a war that has been lasting for 40 years and has no prospect of ending. People have had rifles in their hands in this country since 1979 and it never made anything better. But they're not supposed to leave because their shirts are too clean, I repeat, what the fuck, man.
gazda
Ancient Mariner
You totally misunderstand my point, and you are replying to me like I am some kind of Jon Schaffer.
If yout dont understand what I want to stay you can ask me normally. I will be happy to reply, because as I said, I was in immigrant camp in 2016 and in last few years I am working and living with Arabs, so I know them very well and that is all connected with my post and my point of view.
This post was responding to Zare who wants people to continue fighting after 40 years that have shown fighting just kills people and does nothing else.
Also, this photo of 600 people transported in one American plane is making the news right now. And as you see, all young men with clean shirts and packed luggage, evidently with access to piles of money.
Dude, I was responding to ZARE
Yax
Ancient Mariner
I do not believe we should sit in the comfort of our homes and diminish the suffering of millions of people. People are fleeing because they are afraid and many will die under the Taliban rule. Every damn time people flee certain death or a dictatorship the internet gets filled with people questioning their right to run for their lives (i.e. other parts of the population are more deserving of protection or whatever). I understand USA's reasoning, and from their point of view they are right in withdrawing. However, the withdrawal was done in an incompetent way. The end result is a horrible living situation for all not pro Taliban and death for those who do not subjugate or who have worked against the Taliban. We, as the "western world" should have done much better.
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gazda
Ancient Mariner
Yesterday you reply to me. But ok, not important now.
Talibans are unusaul calm, reports said that situation in Kabul is peacfull, so maybe they wait until world stop looking at them to implement their laws. Just like S.Arabia, to do everything behind closed door and in silent.
Interesting fact is that from 2014 to 2016 more than 400 000 Afghans immigrant enter Europe during crisis, that number si much bigger when you count the people that entered without documents. But it seems that life in Afghan was not so good at peak of American rule there.
jazz from hell
Ancient Mariner
I had to serve in an army myself, because in my country most men had to — while women don’t have to do anything for their homeland here, which would be another discussion... So I learned how to shoot, which I enjoyed, even achieved a shooting badge. But, thank God, I was never in a war and don’t know if I’d be able to fight a real enemy and shoot real people down in a serious situation; hope I’ll never have to find out.
Having said that, and with all the criticism about the terrible consequences of the American pull-out intact, it is indeed still stunning how a well equipped army of 300’000 deserts to 60’000 guerilla fighters in just a few days.
The collapse of the Afghan Army is shocking if you are thinking of Afghanistan as a nation-state...which it isn't.
But that's the problem. It wasn't a well-equipped army. Its funding was often pocketed by corrupt officers and the equipment was often sold on the black market. Those 300 000 soldiers existed on paper, nobody really knows how many men were actually in service. Many of those that were didn't even have guns or if they did, didn't know how to use them. There were few able or experienced commanders.
All these things were known to western authorities, but they didn't bother to do anything about it. That's the scandal here.
D
Deleted member 7164
Guest
IM HERE you don't have to yell
To each his own, they don't have to fight, they're free to yield and flee. But why do I have to have this grip in my stomach while thinking about what is about to happen to Afghanistan, while their men are dying by falling from plane's fuselage?
I'm not high horsing anyone, I'm beyond sad at what's happening. But for fucks sake, not one neighborhood was holding on. Not one.
Also I'm not arguing with anyone here, just with the notion of press that we take the most blame. No we don't.
D
Deleted member 7164
Guest
I don't have an answer to this situation, you know that.
But if they won't fight, why is the blame game now on NATO and Biden in particular?
And that hypothesis is a bit shallow. We have not been fighting the right way, c'mon you know that as well as me. Half arsed war, weapon polygon thing.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
There is more to it than failing of the West... There are local factors, Afghan deals with Taliban.
Before the end of July, the Taliban had already conquered many districts around the provincial capitals, so they were well positioned to finally take that last step. But everyone was surprised that it happened so quickly. More resistance from the Afghan government army was assumed.
There was that resistance in the beginning, but it turns out not to be enough. Moreover, it is not what you would hope for from an army that has been built, trained and paid for by the West for the last twenty years. Since the US and NATO withdrew their troops from the country, the Taliban has been advancing ever further. Tens of thousands of Afghans have therefore fled.
Zoom in on exactly that point, those trainings. The Netherlands has also been active in Afghanistan for years, precisely to train Afghan security forces and the police. Was that for nothing? Well, the Netherlands has certainly contributed to both a qualitative and a quantitative improvement of those troops, including the police.
What we have not been able to prevent is that the Afghan army mainly fights for the money. And not to defend the Afghan nation. There really is no such thing as an Afghan nation. That means it is very difficult to create an effective, national army.
There are other reasons for the rapid advance. Namely the fear of the Taliban. They are quite successful in instilling fear with their propaganda. In the west we often think that the Taliban are now more moderate than before most Afghans don't see it that way. They mainly see a still ultra-conservative movement that does not go along with the progressive thinking that has emerged among many Afghans over the past twenty years.
And then there are the fights. Or actually, the lack of fights. Because many areas and cities seem to be handed over to the Taliban without violence. Local deals have been made in a number of places to surrender the city without a fight.
That is partly due to the fact that power in Afghanistan rests mainly with local groups and tribes, and not with the central government. In addition, government armies were sometimes deliberately withdrawn to avoid civilian deaths in the event of heavy fighting. However, we should not necessarily see that as a good move. You don't know how many civilian deaths there will be later, for example due to reprisals by the Taliban.
Before the end of July, the Taliban had already conquered many districts around the provincial capitals, so they were well positioned to finally take that last step. But everyone was surprised that it happened so quickly. More resistance from the Afghan government army was assumed.
There was that resistance in the beginning, but it turns out not to be enough. Moreover, it is not what you would hope for from an army that has been built, trained and paid for by the West for the last twenty years. Since the US and NATO withdrew their troops from the country, the Taliban has been advancing ever further. Tens of thousands of Afghans have therefore fled.
Zoom in on exactly that point, those trainings. The Netherlands has also been active in Afghanistan for years, precisely to train Afghan security forces and the police. Was that for nothing? Well, the Netherlands has certainly contributed to both a qualitative and a quantitative improvement of those troops, including the police.
What we have not been able to prevent is that the Afghan army mainly fights for the money. And not to defend the Afghan nation. There really is no such thing as an Afghan nation. That means it is very difficult to create an effective, national army.
There are other reasons for the rapid advance. Namely the fear of the Taliban. They are quite successful in instilling fear with their propaganda. In the west we often think that the Taliban are now more moderate than before most Afghans don't see it that way. They mainly see a still ultra-conservative movement that does not go along with the progressive thinking that has emerged among many Afghans over the past twenty years.
And then there are the fights. Or actually, the lack of fights. Because many areas and cities seem to be handed over to the Taliban without violence. Local deals have been made in a number of places to surrender the city without a fight.
That is partly due to the fact that power in Afghanistan rests mainly with local groups and tribes, and not with the central government. In addition, government armies were sometimes deliberately withdrawn to avoid civilian deaths in the event of heavy fighting. However, we should not necessarily see that as a good move. You don't know how many civilian deaths there will be later, for example due to reprisals by the Taliban.
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D
Deleted member 7164
Guest
Ok I was wrong. There is at least one point of resistance
www.dailymail.co.uk
Afghan vice president rally anti-Taliban forces in last stronghold
Amrullah Saleh and Ahmad Massoud are rallying troops to launch a counter offensive from the Panjshir valley - the only region not under Taliban control. It has never been captured by the group.
Yes.
I know it's hard to hear, but yes, it was for nothing.
And we saw what that was worth. The troops disintegrated almost immediately. We don't know what the police did, but if they're still around, they are now working for the Taliban.
jazz from hell
Ancient Mariner
Didn’t know how to use a gun? Come on.
If you get your information from unsourced screenshots, you should always expect something fishy. Media competence 101.
Here's the survey. It's from April 2013.
Of the Afghans surveyed it says:
Afghanistan
Sample design: Stratified area probability sample of all 34 Afghan provinces (excluding
nomadic populations) proportional to population size and urban/rural population. Mode: Face-to-face adults 18+ Languages: Baloch, Dari, Hazara, Pashto, Uzbek Fieldwork dates: Nov. 27–Dec. 17, 2011 Representative: Nationally representative of 94% of the adult population. Design effect: 3.4
Sounds good until you read the methodology restrictions:
Gender Imbalances: In Afghanistan and Niger, the survey respondents are disproportionately
male, while in Thailand, Azerbaijan and Uzbekistan they are disproportionately female.
Education: In many countries, census statistics on education are unavailable, dated or
disputed by experts. The lack of reliable national statistics limits the extent to which survey
samples can be assessed for representativeness on this measure.
Honestly, I don't know if this survey is worth anything.
Here's the survey. It's from April 2013.
Of the Afghans surveyed it says:
Afghanistan
Sample design: Stratified area probability sample of all 34 Afghan provinces (excluding
nomadic populations) proportional to population size and urban/rural population. Mode: Face-to-face adults 18+ Languages: Baloch, Dari, Hazara, Pashto, Uzbek Fieldwork dates: Nov. 27–Dec. 17, 2011 Representative: Nationally representative of 94% of the adult population. Design effect: 3.4
Sounds good until you read the methodology restrictions:
Gender Imbalances: In Afghanistan and Niger, the survey respondents are disproportionately
male, while in Thailand, Azerbaijan and Uzbekistan they are disproportionately female.
Education: In many countries, census statistics on education are unavailable, dated or
disputed by experts. The lack of reliable national statistics limits the extent to which survey
samples can be assessed for representativeness on this measure.
Honestly, I don't know if this survey is worth anything.