____no5
Free Man
What background? I hope you don't mean living in a Communist country as leftism has nothing to do with it. I'm quite sure that @GhostofCain wouldn't like to live behind the Iron Curtain either.
What background? I hope you don't mean living in a Communist country as leftism has nothing to do with it. I'm quite sure that @GhostofCain wouldn't like to live behind the Iron Curtain either.
This is because you're ignorant of Canadian politics. The Speaker of the House is not a member of any political party and the Ukrainian Nazi soldier in question was brought to the event by his office. MPs are all allowed to bring guests to special occasions and many choose to bring guests related to what's happening. Trudeau did apologize that it happened, but the Prime Minister's Office does not get to vet MP guests - that's the job of Parliament Security and the individual MPs.
That said, it's an incredible embarrassment and I cannot for the life of me understand why someone didn't realize who a 98 year old man fighting against the USSR was fighting *with*.
____no5
Free Man
It’s still ugly the way that he did it.
If you notice, the time that the speaker reads the part that the 98 year old fought against USSR, he makes a tiny pause as if he just realized what was the truth behind those words.
Interestingly Zelensky didn’t communicate embarrassment or anything like this about this incident.
No, it was truthful. He apologized on behalf of the nation and noted it was embarrassing and wrong. The Speaker lost his job, and I believe some other heads will roll inside the security office. It was ugly that it happened.
It's possible, he's supposed to be educated, but he should have realized it beforehand. Regardless, it was his fault, it is his responsibility literally for anything that gets said in Parliament.
Well, that's a different question regarding the use of Ukrainian fascists and Nazis as nationalists in their national myth.
____no5
Free Man
Problem is that they are still running the country and officials like Budanov or Zaluzhnyi don’t even bother to hide it.
And if the president himself didn’t came up with a statement it must be pretty bad.
We had a similar incident in Greek parliament Zoom call with Zelensky when he brought Azov Batallion fighters to address the representatives.
GhostofCain
Ancient Mariner
Zelenskyy is Jewish, isn’t he? I might be mistaken, but I do not think he would have any sympathy for Ukranians who were with the Nazis.
GhostofCain
Ancient Mariner
Hear, hear!
____no5
Free Man
I don’t think he has but many people in his government idolize them so his hands and mouth are tight.
Can you provide any evidence for this claim? And please do better than the bracelet Zaluzhniy was wearing.
____no5
Free Man
Ukraine’s glorification of Stepan Bandera draws criticism even from key ally : Peoples Dispatch
Since 2014, the post-Maidan regime in Ukraine and its far-right militias have been glorifying the far-right, hyper-nationalist legacy of World War II Nazi collaborator Stepan Bandera
peoplesdispatch.org
Ukrainian military chief photographed with far-right paraphernalia
The photos clearly demonstrate the extent to which the Ukrainian far right is linked to the highest levels of the Ukrainian government and military.
www.wsws.org
Commemoration of Stepan Bandera - Wikipedia
Ukraine’s glorification of Stepan Bandera draws criticism even from key ally : Peoples Dispatch
Since 2014, the post-Maidan regime in Ukraine and its far-right militias have been glorifying the far-right, hyper-nationalist legacy of World War II Nazi collaborator Stepan Bandera
Ukrainian military chief photographed with far-right paraphernalia
The photos clearly demonstrate the extent to which the Ukrainian far right is linked to the highest levels of the Ukrainian government and military.www.wsws.org
Commemoration of Stepan Bandera - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
It would help if you actually read the articles you posted there, because, as the Wiki article details, things are far more complicated than "Someone who likes Bandera = Nazi".
EDIT: Sorry, not "as the Wiki article you posted details", but the Wiki article on Bandera himself. So I guess you read the articles you posted, but not beyond that.
EDIT 2: To clarify: Yes, there are Ukrainian Nazis. I'm not making light of that. The question is whether anyone who celebrates Bandera is a Nazi. It is a controversial topic in Ukraine, too. It's controversial because there are people who celebrate Bandera as a force against Soviet imperialism and for an independent country; this tends to be the reason why someone in Ukraine would like him.Bandera himself was a nationalist, not a Nazi. Yes, he collaborated to a degree with the Nazis in the fight against the Soviets, yes, nationalism sucks, yes, I wish there were better idols for Ukrainians fighting against Putin's monsters, and yes, I reject idolatry in general. You have to ask however, how much the threat of Russia drove people into a stance that they started idolising someone like Bandera. Or in other words, did the Ukrainians worship Bandera because they're shitty people and Nazis from the start, or did they do so because they really hate being under the control of Moscow, they are afraid of being conquered by the Russian Empire again, and Bandera was someone who led the fight against that in the past?
And finally, and I will repeat this question every time from now on, and I demand your answer to it: Do the statues of Bandera and the people carrying his picture justify the invasion, the massacres of Butcha, the abduction of children and the destruction of the country? Answer this.
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____no5
Free Man
Perun, don't take that route of defending Bandera worshippers, or we could make the case "where is the evidence that Yaroslav Hunka" was actually engaged in atrocities which surprise -surprise it has been done already by Politico.
Yes history is complicated, but this goes both ways and could end up finding excuses for Russia's behavior.
At the very least they are far right and this is bad enough regardless of Nazi label. Fascists they weren't Nazis either.
Very simply; the fact that Zelensky stayed silenced about Yaroslav Hunka incident or the fact that he brought Azov batallion fighters to Greek parliament is telling enough of who are running the country and it should make anyone think twice.
Zelensky talked about Climate Change the other day in UN. He is seemingly aligned with Western values but in anti-nazism, he remains silent. Isn't that at all suspicious to you?
Yes history is complicated, but this goes both ways and could end up finding excuses for Russia's behavior.
At the very least they are far right and this is bad enough regardless of Nazi label. Fascists they weren't Nazis either.
Very simply; the fact that Zelensky stayed silenced about Yaroslav Hunka incident or the fact that he brought Azov batallion fighters to Greek parliament is telling enough of who are running the country and it should make anyone think twice.
Zelensky talked about Climate Change the other day in UN. He is seemingly aligned with Western values but in anti-nazism, he remains silent. Isn't that at all suspicious to you?
You're well at it, my friend!
What is your suspicion? What do you think this leads to? Death camps in Ukraine? What are you getting at? Can you finally say that for a change?
Do the statues of Bandera and the people carrying his picture justify the invasion, the massacres of Butcha, the abduction of children and the destruction of the country? Answer this.
____no5
Free Man
Obviously a huge no.
Interesting to see your stance on the other matter though. If you are happy with people running the country, any country, worshipping Bandera, I don't have anything else to say. And I won't.
I think you misunderstand my stance on "the other matter", but I can't be sure, because I don't understand the sentence "If you are happy with people running the country, any country raise status of Bandera".
But for what it's worth, I'll try to respond to what I think you said, meaning that I might be okay with Nazis running Ukraine.
Obviously I'm not okay with that. Obviously I hate Nazism, I hate nationalism, and I hate the cult worship of people. And in fact, this is something that really pisses me off here: The Ukrainians as a people and a nation did not have any particular love lost to Nazism at any point. Far right political parties were comparatively weak in the country for a long time. There was a bit of a scare when Svoboda got upwards of 30% during elections in their stronghold oblasts in the far west of the country in 2012, and yes, Oleh Tyahnybok is a scary and disgusting piece of shit. But the nationwide influence of this party was negligible. At its peak, it got 37 seats in the parliament. In the 2019 elections, it got one. Yes, there were three Svoboda members in the Euromaidan transitional government, but that didn't last long, and the same government made an effort to disarm right-wing militias which yes, unfortunately, existed in the country.
Meanwhile, your boy Putin sent his soldiers to put their boots on Ukrainian soil and spread fear in the country. The Ukrainians knew that Putin is a fan of Ivan Ilyin, a guy whose ideas would sound fucking scary to me too if I were Ukrainian. You should look him up. So the Ukrainians were confronted with the direct, armed threat of an ideology that called for the eradication of Ukraine as a culture and as a nation, so does it really surprise you that there would be some very disgusting ideas popping up in the minds of some Ukrainians too? I fucking hate this, and no, I do not want Ukraine to be run by Nazis, and just like Putin at every moment had the choice to invade Ukraine or not, so does every Nazi idiot have the choice to become a Nazi idiot or not. And I don't wan to defend Nazi idiots. I also don't want the Russians to bomb Ukrainian cities, blow up Ukrainian dams, abduct Ukrainian children or murder Ukrainian civilians. I don't want any of this. I fucking hate all of this. I wish Russians and Ukrainians would clasp hands and sing kumbaya.
But that's not happening, is it? What do you want me to say? There are shitty people in the Ukrainian government? Fine, there are some really shitty people in the Ukrainian government. Now what? Ukraine doesn't deserve peace because there are some really shitty people in the country? We should just let the people there be killed because some of the people in the government aren't any better than the invaders?
Again: What is your suspicion?
But for what it's worth, I'll try to respond to what I think you said, meaning that I might be okay with Nazis running Ukraine.
Obviously I'm not okay with that. Obviously I hate Nazism, I hate nationalism, and I hate the cult worship of people. And in fact, this is something that really pisses me off here: The Ukrainians as a people and a nation did not have any particular love lost to Nazism at any point. Far right political parties were comparatively weak in the country for a long time. There was a bit of a scare when Svoboda got upwards of 30% during elections in their stronghold oblasts in the far west of the country in 2012, and yes, Oleh Tyahnybok is a scary and disgusting piece of shit. But the nationwide influence of this party was negligible. At its peak, it got 37 seats in the parliament. In the 2019 elections, it got one. Yes, there were three Svoboda members in the Euromaidan transitional government, but that didn't last long, and the same government made an effort to disarm right-wing militias which yes, unfortunately, existed in the country.
Meanwhile, your boy Putin sent his soldiers to put their boots on Ukrainian soil and spread fear in the country. The Ukrainians knew that Putin is a fan of Ivan Ilyin, a guy whose ideas would sound fucking scary to me too if I were Ukrainian. You should look him up. So the Ukrainians were confronted with the direct, armed threat of an ideology that called for the eradication of Ukraine as a culture and as a nation, so does it really surprise you that there would be some very disgusting ideas popping up in the minds of some Ukrainians too? I fucking hate this, and no, I do not want Ukraine to be run by Nazis, and just like Putin at every moment had the choice to invade Ukraine or not, so does every Nazi idiot have the choice to become a Nazi idiot or not. And I don't wan to defend Nazi idiots. I also don't want the Russians to bomb Ukrainian cities, blow up Ukrainian dams, abduct Ukrainian children or murder Ukrainian civilians. I don't want any of this. I fucking hate all of this. I wish Russians and Ukrainians would clasp hands and sing kumbaya.
But that's not happening, is it? What do you want me to say? There are shitty people in the Ukrainian government? Fine, there are some really shitty people in the Ukrainian government. Now what? Ukraine doesn't deserve peace because there are some really shitty people in the country? We should just let the people there be killed because some of the people in the government aren't any better than the invaders?
Again: What is your suspicion?
JudasMyGuide
Ancient Mariner
There is another thing to mention as well
I think when we talk about "Nazism" or nationalism, we always have our view skewered by Nazi Germany or other "big countries/nations" in the position of power, but for nations that were repressed, oppressed and downtrodden, a certain amount of nationalism or national chauvinism was in fact beneficial or even necessary for keeping their identity intact or achieving independence.
I should know, since we were under Austria's thumb for quite some time, before we gained independence as a country in 1918. That led us to a really strong sense of nationalism in the previous 60-70 years before that, during the 19th century, even toying with the idea of Pan-Slavism - which was more or less the first Russian attempt at hybrid attacks, as the imperial Russia tried to spread this idea in particular among Slavic countries in order to turn them to chaos from the inside and leave Russia alone with its problems; but it was a way to balance or oppose the Austrian-Hungarian influence and control at the time, so we lapped it up like a hungry dog.
I stress this because - as far as I know - Ukraine had a rather similar position in modern history (and especially in the 20th century) and while Bandera was a terrible person who would never get my approval, at least from what I gather he wasn't "Nazi" as such (hey, we all know how the Germans thought about Slavic people), but more or less collaborated with them in order to "help" his nation. In a dubious way, which for me as a deontologist is even worse than for you lot probably is, but still.
I say it because our neighbour, Slovakia, with whom we have shared a single state in the past in fact, have the same problem - after being under Austria-Hungary (it was mostly Hungary for them) and after they felt second-rate in the state with us (where we mostly took them in to balance out the Germans pre-WW2), they more or less gained independence and national confidence... by collaborating with Hitler. So the history of the Slovak State is also a mess, especially with regards to how a lot of people there feel.
A branch of my family ended there and yes, in that branch, the Slovak State was never mentioned as a Nazi satellite, but only as THE FIRST INDEPENDENDENT SLOVAK STATE. Their pride and glory.
I'm not saying that's a right way to look at it, just that sometimes it is more complex than it might seem.
I'm not sure where many of the users here come from, but this is something that I don't think you people completely get.
EDIT: As I see, @Perun seems to have kinda mentioned this point of view as well previously, HOWEVER, since you two seem to be either from Germany or from anywhere where they really like them some Russia, I think the point of view of someone coming from the "small nations" might be beneficial to have.
I think when we talk about "Nazism" or nationalism, we always have our view skewered by Nazi Germany or other "big countries/nations" in the position of power, but for nations that were repressed, oppressed and downtrodden, a certain amount of nationalism or national chauvinism was in fact beneficial or even necessary for keeping their identity intact or achieving independence.
I should know, since we were under Austria's thumb for quite some time, before we gained independence as a country in 1918. That led us to a really strong sense of nationalism in the previous 60-70 years before that, during the 19th century, even toying with the idea of Pan-Slavism - which was more or less the first Russian attempt at hybrid attacks, as the imperial Russia tried to spread this idea in particular among Slavic countries in order to turn them to chaos from the inside and leave Russia alone with its problems; but it was a way to balance or oppose the Austrian-Hungarian influence and control at the time, so we lapped it up like a hungry dog.
I stress this because - as far as I know - Ukraine had a rather similar position in modern history (and especially in the 20th century) and while Bandera was a terrible person who would never get my approval, at least from what I gather he wasn't "Nazi" as such (hey, we all know how the Germans thought about Slavic people), but more or less collaborated with them in order to "help" his nation. In a dubious way, which for me as a deontologist is even worse than for you lot probably is, but still.
I say it because our neighbour, Slovakia, with whom we have shared a single state in the past in fact, have the same problem - after being under Austria-Hungary (it was mostly Hungary for them) and after they felt second-rate in the state with us (where we mostly took them in to balance out the Germans pre-WW2), they more or less gained independence and national confidence... by collaborating with Hitler. So the history of the Slovak State is also a mess, especially with regards to how a lot of people there feel.
A branch of my family ended there and yes, in that branch, the Slovak State was never mentioned as a Nazi satellite, but only as THE FIRST INDEPENDENDENT SLOVAK STATE. Their pride and glory.
I'm not saying that's a right way to look at it, just that sometimes it is more complex than it might seem.
I'm not sure where many of the users here come from, but this is something that I don't think you people completely get.
EDIT: As I see, @Perun seems to have kinda mentioned this point of view as well previously, HOWEVER, since you two seem to be either from Germany or from anywhere where they really like them some Russia, I think the point of view of someone coming from the "small nations" might be beneficial to have.
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Onhell
Infinite Dreamer
Finland comes to mind as well, forever a territory fought over by Sweden and Russia and through 19th century nationalism finally took steps to create it's own state.
But I do see Perun's point of view as well. Nationalism, overall, can be dangerous. Here in Mexico when we talk about "Mexicans" we usually mean the descendants of Europeans, mostly ignoring the still existing native populations and in many cases, including legal, still treating them as "other."
As many things, it's a double edge sword.