Why did Steve Harris fire Clive Burr ?

CriedWhenBrucieLeft said:
What happens if it was the reason though? It doesn't matter what you think of his playing from listening to bootlegs. If this is how Steve felt, even incorrectly, then this is what he felt. You can believe this to be objectively incorrect if you want; this doesn't disqualify this being the reason given then & now.
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It is also possible that one can believe he did not feel like that.

You can believe that official story if you want, this is what you feel. If this is how you feel, even incorrectly, then this is what you feel. You can believe this to be objectively correct if you want; this doesn't disqualify this being the reason given then & now.
 
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Forostar said:
It is also possible that one can believe he did not feel like that
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Why? If this is what he's said (or his words have implied this) why are you disputing how Steve Harris felt? Were you there? You're simply refusing to believe Steve. Which is fine, but just say that.
Forostar said:
You can believe that official story if you want, this is what you feel. If this is how you feel, even incorrectly, then this is what you feel. You can believe this to be objectively correct if you want; this doesn't disqualify this being the reason given then & now.
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I don't feel this; I'm simply putting it to you, as someone who isn't "buying it" (I have expressed no opinion on this), that the "official" explanation hardly sounds implausible. Added to the fact that the material facts surrounding Nicko's sponsorship in the argument put forth appear to be factually incorrect.
 
Well guessed. I do not believe the official story.* But this cannot be new to you. I have said this before, I haven't been anxious for nothing to find out as much as possible about this subject. I found out that Nicko never played live with Maiden in 1982. It is Clive we hear play the drums so well.

*Why? Well, I trust my own judgement when I hear the bootlegs. I feel sure that Steve does not judge this playing worse than I do. He must have heard how good the live playing was.

Is it so weird to not always believe Maiden? I also do not believe that the four people credited on The Soundhouse Tapes were the only people who played on that demo.

Nicko got free drums from Sonor before he was in Maiden. I clearly remember an interview in which Nicko told that he could choose a kit. Endorsement or not: he did what Sonor and himself wanted.
 
Okay, let me put it another way: does Steve Harris sound to you like the sort of guy who would turf out his drummer, a guy he was perfectly happy with, because of commercial endorsement reasons? Does that version of the truth feel right to you? Maiden talk a load of shit sometimes but this doesn't sound that likely; to me anyway. And that isn't me supporting some other theory, just saying.
 
As someone who works in the music gear industry, this whole thing reads like a conspiracy theory. Most of my feelings have been covered by other doubters who have already posted, so I'll just add a couple thoughts:

The notion that a player losing an endorsement would be so financially crippling as to put a dent in Maiden's activity is ridiculous. If Clive had been dropped by Tama while he was with Maiden (which there is no evidence for), and Maiden were so insolvent they couldn't afford to rent a backline kit for touring (which they most certainly weren't), there would have been half a dozen companies already lined up to sign him at the drop of a hat- he was an extremely talented player in one of the most popular up-and-coming heavy rock bands of the day and he could have easily gotten a deal with another manufacturer like Pearl or Yamaha.

Also, you can clearly hear Clive playing his octobans during this drum solo around 1:18, and the gong tom/bass around 3:00. This idea that he "never used" them is complete bollocks.


At the end of the day, the reality is that Steve probably just liked the way Nicko played better, and that's all there is to it.
 
Well it’s an interesting theory at least. But, as others pointed out, it’s full of holes. My understanding of instrument endorsements is that they primarily benefited the individual musicians rather than the entire band. I don’t think dropping Clive would have made a dent in Maiden’s business. Also if it was that big of a deal, I don’t see why Clive couldn’t have just used a bigger kit. It’s all theatrics anyway.

Btw I’m not a drummer so I’d love to read more about Clive’s technical abilities and “innovations.” Imo his hi hat hits on songs like, say, Phantom of the Opera, were always less precise than what Nicko would go on to play. It worked for Maiden’s sound at the time, but the direction they went in with Piece of Mind suites Nicko’s accuracy better.
 
CriedWhenBrucieLeft said:
Okay, let me put it another way: does Steve Harris sound to you like the sort of guy who would turf out his drummer, a guy he was perfectly happy with, because of commercial endorsement reasons? Does that version of the truth feel right to you? Maiden talk a load of shit sometimes but this doesn't sound that likely; to me anyway. And that isn't me supporting some other theory, just saying.
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No that is not what I have said. He preferred Nicko, in drumming style and character. That is probably the main reason. Nicko having a better relationship with Sonor could have helped but was not the main decision.

The thing is: I find the criticism on the Clive live drumming unbelievable. So I disagree with the official story. I do not believe it. If Clive was good in one thing it was his drumming so I think the official story takes away too much credit. His qualities are not acknowledged. Rather puts him in a bad light. However much I like Nicko, Clive deserves a better role in the official Maiden story. More credit. They could have corrected this when Clive died (or earlier) but they never did. Sad.

Clive was certainly more precise than Nicko. Nicko is known for not being the tightest especially live.

Steve preferred Nicko because of his taste. Not because Nicko was a more precise/consistent/tight live player.
Lego said:
At the end of the day, the reality is that Steve probably just liked the way Nicko played better
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Now if that would be the main focus in the official story, without the nonsense, fine.

Good to see I am not the only one speaking openly about not hearing decline in Clive's playing. On the contrary: he did demonstrably well.
 
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Wasn’t Clive supposedly a heavy partier, too much into the rock and roll lifestyle, like Paul? Steve only wanted guys that were 100% dedicated to the music. I read that story somewhere. Since Clive’s playing sounds good to my ears, this theory makes more sense to me than that his performances declined.

But maybe it’s just dirty slander of Clive’s character. I don’t know. Only Steve knows the truth. In any case, I like Nikko better. He fits better for the more progressive Maiden style that Steve was pushing. Steve is obviously completely comfortable with Nikko, which is the most important thing.
 
Having freshly read this chapter in Bruce's book, Clive was one of a few heavy partiers. His simple explanation, that Nicko just fit the musical direction better in Steve's view, and that musical direction, including the nuts and bolts of creating that music - heavily Steve-led - was causing friction between Clive and Steve, is very persuasive.

I was also amused to learn that one of Steve's writing practices was whistling vague melodies into a small cassette recorder.
 
I've never been able to imagine what the creative process must be like in a heavy metal studio, and Bruce's recollections only made me more incapable of building this image in my mind. It must be an odd place.
 
I think steve got rid of cliff because nic was simply a more professional man and a better hitter.he probably heard wed and beleived this man could deliver the goods in the future.whistling all his songs is how Steve does his magic there is no surprise this worked
 
Everyone forgets that McB was a serious session drummer before Maiden. A session drummer actually needs to follow what the others (who hired him) are saying about the play and the music. You bet this was important to Harris, especially if he had ill communication with Burr regarding rhythm section stuff.

There are a couple of Metallica-like moments on Burr albums where drums are actually following the rhythm guitars and not bass - most apparent on the Twilight Zone. There are no such moments post 1982.
 
Mr11 wed is probably what got mr mcbrain into maiden when he trialled.I read that in a magazine i think. 100 precent sure of that.
Listen to the intro if you dont trust me?
 
Actually McBrain spoke how he and Harris crafted the main beat, while Dickinson was the one to point him to his earlier work (with Pat Travers?) - the base fill that became WED intro.

I am actually not certain I ever heard McB trialing for the band. I think he just got the gig. Probably Harris and him jammed (maybe others too as well) and that was it.

What I am actually certain that back in 1983 he was in another league compared to Burr. Clive is great but McBrain is world class. I know people on this forum don't share that opinion with me, but Steve Harris does.
 
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