Why did Steve Harris fire Clive Burr ?

[Forostar]

Thank you Ghost. I'm going to contact Classic Rock. Still, right now I'm doing the devil's advocate, to get this as sharp as we can: That (whole) article can still be true, except from the period, when it happened.

edit: Sorry, I mean to say that Clive could have left Maiden during a USA tour leg, but not because of the actual death of his father, but because of something else. Perhaps his father was very ill and they thought he would die soon. And he (or Classic Rock!) might have mixed this trauma (with Clive's return to Maiden where things did not feel as good) up with the death of his father (a second dark day for him in 1982, after which the band soon told him to leave). So, Clive or Classic Rock could have made a mistake (connecting two ill tidings, while they actually were separate ones), rather than saying the whole article is bullshit.

The case about the date of death of Ronald Ernest Bertram Burr is closed. Not the search for the exact period in which Nicko has performed with Maiden in 1982.

 

[GhostofCain]

Thank you Ghost. I'm going to contact Classic Rock. Still, right now I'm doing the devil's advocate, to get this as sharp as we can: That (whole) article can still be true, except from the period, when it happened.

edit: Sorry, I mean to say that Clive could have left Maiden during a USA tour leg, but not because of the actual death of his father, but because of something else. Perhaps his father was very ill and they thought he would die soon. And he (or Classic Rock!) might have mixed this trauma (with Clive's return to Maiden where things did not feel as good) up with the death of his father (a second dark day for him in 1982, after which the band soon told him to leave). So, Clive or Classic Rock could have made a mistake (connecting two ill tidings, while they actually were separate ones), rather than saying the whole article is bullshit.

The case about the date of death of Ronald Ernest Bertram Burr is closed. Not the search for the exact period in which Nicko has performed with Maiden in 1982.

My pleasure.

I am not saying that Clive might not have missed some gigs with Maiden in 1982 and Nicko filled in, but so far we are only sure about the Belgian TV show.

What it seems is true though is that either Clive was bullshitting a lot in that Classic Rock article or Classic Rock fabricated a piece of crap using some quotes from Clive:

The truth, as it often is in cases of heavy metal musical chairs, is a bit murkier, a bit more acrimonious. It started with a phone call. He doesn’t recall where he was when he got the call, he just remembers that he had to get home to London. His dad, Ronald, had died unexpectedly of a heart attack. He was just 57 years old.

It was Christmas day and he was already out of Iron Maiden...

A US road map dotted with gigs lay in front of Maiden, but at that moment it didn’t matter, he says. “I had to get home.” Everyone seemed fine with that, he remembers. Go home, they said. Be with your family. Clive flew back to London on Concorde.
Maiden brought in former Trust drummer Nicko McBrain as a replacement so the tour could continue, the show could go on. Clive and Nicko were mates. No worries. Everything was cool.
“I knew Nicko,” Clive says. Nice bloke. Good drummer. At a number of earlier shows, Nicko had dressed up as Eddie to terrorise the crowd. “He loved the band, he loved being part of it all. And the rest of the band liked him.” Clive was about to find out just how much.
So Clive flew home, went to his father’s funeral, spent some time with his family, and two weeks later flew back to the States to join up with Maiden, who were criss-crossing America supporting Rainbow, Scorpions, .38 Special and Judas Priest.

Again, not really the most accurate description of events after the death of Clive's dad...

 

[Forostar]

I know. It's not correct. I think they confused (wrongfully connected) things. At least we know for sure two things happened:

1. Clive left the tour and came back (could be in June as Nicko hinted on).
2. Clive's dad died. Soon afterwards he was fired.

 

[GhostofCain]

I know. It's not correct. I think they confused (wrongfully connected) things. At least we know for sure two things happened:

1. Clive left the tour and came back (could be in June as Nicko hinted on).

I think you are jumping to conclusions saying that we know things for sure. We still do not have any proof of Clive leaving the tour but the word of someone who claims that he left the tour to attend his father's funeral following a phone call telling him that his dad had died... Strange, considering that the death certificate shows that his dad died on 25th December 1982. I would take any of his quotes on that article with a pinch of salt.

We do however know that Nicko stood in for Clive in that Belgian TV show in April 1982.

2. Clive's dad died. Soon afterwards he was fired.

He could have been fired before that or he could have been told in early January that his services were no longer needed. Again, we do not have any proof for either option.

 

[Sth2112]

Maybe Clive went home for a brief moment during the tour to say goodbye to his father, if he was already dying from a sickness, cancer or something similar?

Edit: nevermind, just saw that the article said he died of a sudden heart attack.

 

[Forostar]

I think you are jumping to conclusions saying that we know things for sure. We still do not have any proof of Clive leaving the tour but the word of someone who claims that he left the tour to attend his father's funeral following a phone call telling him that his dad had died... Strange, considering that the death certificate shows that his dad died on 25th December 1982. I would take any of his quotes on that article with a pinch of salt.

We do however know that Nicko stood in for Clive in that Belgian TV show in April 1982.

We know Nicko claimed that he filled in for Clive for June. I'm not disregarding this.

He could have been fired before that or he could have been told in early January that his services were no longer needed. Again, we do not have any proof for either option.

My number 2. doesn't contradict certain elements of the article. Your insinuations would contradict the article even more, so then we'd jump even more to conclusions.

Early January is still soon after the death of his father. Not a big difference. We do not have proof but we have one article that does not have to be disregarded completely. The same goes for Nicko's recent statement.

So: he was temporarily replaced by Nicko. He was fired not long after his dad died. At least, Clive and Nicko said these things. Again, no proof, but to mistrust everything that's said goes a little far for me. Let's build on the information we have now, and when there's something else we can adapt our views. It's A Matter of Clive and McBrain.

 

[Whooten]

Piece of Mind recordings began in January 1983 with Nicko.

 

[GhostofCain]

We know Nicko claimed that he filled in for Clive for June. I'm not disregarding this.

We also know that band members have not been accurate with dates in the past. Anyway, once we have a bootleg suggesting a different drummer than Clive playing for Maiden in the US in 1982 I will be happy to believe that happened.

Early January is still soon after the death of his father. Not a big difference.

If you just focus on the period of time between the death of Clive's dad and him being fired, that is true, there is merely a 4-6 month difference. However, I would say there is a huge difference between telling a load of porkies (like saying he had to leave the US tour to go to his father's funeral, with Nicko replacing him during that period!) and the information supported by the death certificate...

 

[harrisdevot]

Or maybe Nicko was in know already that they were going to let Clive go at the end of the tour and thus he was already in the band "unofficially"....But yeah, now that you mention it, he's probably referring to the Eddie mask story.

Nicko seems to allude to something of this kind. I bet you've got something here.

 

[SixesAlltheway]

We also know that band members have not been accurate with dates in the past.

This is also true. I'm sure if we could compile every story Nicko has ever told about him joining Maiden there would be a lot of discrepancies....

 

[Luisma]

I had just finish reading this and looking for another thing found an Interview of Nicko in Rhythm - 100 Drum Heroes (2015) that could clarify things a little, here it goes:

“In the middle of 1982 I had just finished a tour of France with Trust, after which I was actually let go from that band. They didn’t pay me for the work that I finished. Nothing new there. I was sitting at home, and I got this phone call from [Maiden manager] Rod Smallwood. Clive wasn’t doing so well and they asked if I’d consider joining the band. I remember that I was on the phone with Rod for close to an hour, asking him what was going on with Clive. He was explaining things to me and I was defending Clive. Finally, Rod turned round and said, ‘Do you f**king want this gig or not?’ Of course I did, but I didn’t want it under shady conditions. I was then put on a retainer, because they were gonna have a word with Clive. Clive shaped up and got himself back into the band, so I was told that I wasn’t required, and they paid me a month’s severance. A couple of weeks later I got another call because Clive had taken a nosedive again, and I was put back on a retainer. This happened all the way until June of 1982, when they finished their Number Of The Beast tour. That same situation happened three times. It was the third time when things didn’t work out for Clive."

 

[Forostar]

This sounds very interesting. And revealing! Weird part is when he says "finished the tour" because it continued til the end of the year, but he might mean a particular leg of the tour.

What does "put on a retainer" mean?

And what is "severance"?

 

[bearfan]

Put on retainer is giving someone a sum of money to be ready to do something .. you are essentially reserving their time whether you use it or not. Most common use would usually be a lawyer

Severance would be when you get released you get a sum of money when you leave. Usually done with lay offs ... the "we are sorry, you did nothing wrong, but we do not need you any more .. here is $x as a sorry/something to tide you over until you find something else

 

[Forostar]

Thanks Bearfan! And thanks Luisma!

Well, this all surely shows that Nicko (and the band and management) took seriously into account that he could replace Clive. It still doesn't indicate when he played (a) concert(s) though.

 

[bearfan]

It would be interesting if these guys wrote books at some point .. (I know Bruce has one coming out ... but I got the impression somewhere that it will not be a straight autobiography) ... you will probably get 6 or 7 different stories about everything, but would be interesting to read. Really if Rod ever wrote one, that would probably be the best as far as band history/facts. But in any case, the general story of Clive was having problems, Maiden gave him some chances to straighten himself out, he did not and he was gone is really the crux of the story. In the end, they ended up with the better drummer for the band.No offense to Clive, but Nicko is just on another level.

 

[Forostar]

It depends on what aspects we're focusing. Drum-wise, Clive was better at certain things, Nicko was better at certain other things.

Still, in spite of what some others out here have said, I maintain that I do not really hear decline in Clive's playing on any of the many live recordings that have come to surface. Nicko is (also) not the tightest (live) drummer.

 

[Luisma]

Thanks Bearfan! And thanks Luisma!

Well, this all surely shows that Nicko (and the band and management) took seriously into account that he could replace Clive. It still doesn't indicate when he played (a) concert(s) though.

Always a pleasure Foro!

 

[Luisma]

It depends on what aspects we're focusing. Drum-wise, Clive was better at certain things, Nicko was better at certain other things.

Still, in spite of what some others out here have said, I maintain that I do not really hear decline in Clive's playing on any of the many live recordings that have come to surface. Nicko is (also) not the tightest (live) drummer.

It is my understanding that he's playing was not suffering that much but it seems that he (Clive) was having health problems that could affect the future of the band and you know how Steve was/is with this issues

 

[bearfan]

I think it comes down to this (and obviously we don't and probably never really will know the whole story)

It sounds like Clive was going off the rails .. to what degree, who knows.

The band had already gone through this with Di'Anno .. though Clive seemed like a much nicer guy.
The band had seen plenty of bands that were huge in the 1970s fall apart because of stuff like this
They had seen other bands flame out and disappear that never made it big
With Number of the Beast, they really broke out big time and saw a change to get really big and wanted to make sure that happened.

Maybe there were concerns he would miss shows, his playing would suffer, he could not handle the next level ... it makes sense.

In Clive's defense, if I were in my early 20s at that time ... suddenly having some money, travelling the world, that age hormones and sense of being immortal, having drugs/women thrown at you, and really being in a bubble (people may forget how hard/expensive it was to just make a phone call, especially overseas) ... I could easily see falling into that trap. The whole sex, drugs, and rock 'n roll deal of the time.

I'm not sure there is really any fault here .. some times shit happens and I am sure everyone in the band liked Clive and it seemed like he had some chances to fix whatever they thought was wrong (rightly or wrongly) and they decided to go a different direction. In hindsight, Nicko ended up being the perfect drummer for Maiden and it is too bad Clive did not have a better post-Maiden career ... and really bad that he ended up with MS and died way too early.

In sum, I do not blame Maiden and I understand what happened to Clive ... it just did not work out and it is common to try to find fault with one side or another .. but sometimes there really is no fault.

 

[Lego]

I had just finish reading this and looking for another thing found an Interview of Nicko in Rhythm - 100 Drum Heroes (2015) that could clarify things a little, here it goes:

“In the middle of 1982 I had just finished a tour of France with Trust, after which I was actually let go from that band. They didn’t pay me for the work that I finished. Nothing new there. I was sitting at home, and I got this phone call from [Maiden manager] Rod Smallwood. Clive wasn’t doing so well and they asked if I’d consider joining the band. I remember that I was on the phone with Rod for close to an hour, asking him what was going on with Clive. He was explaining things to me and I was defending Clive. Finally, Rod turned round and said, ‘Do you f**king want this gig or not?’ Of course I did, but I didn’t want it under shady conditions. I was then put on a retainer, because they were gonna have a word with Clive. Clive shaped up and got himself back into the band, so I was told that I wasn’t required, and they paid me a month’s severance. A couple of weeks later I got another call because Clive had taken a nosedive again, and I was put back on a retainer. This happened all the way until June of 1982, when they finished their Number Of The Beast tour. That same situation happened three times. It was the third time when things didn’t work out for Clive."

This is amazing! Thank you for sharing this!