USA Politics

Vaenyr said:
Trump's attempted assassins were both former Trump fans.
Kirk had a fued with Nick Fuentes, a neo nazi, so the shooter could be even further right than Charlie.
It could be a centrist.
We have absolutely no information on the suspect yet.


Is that what I said? No, nor did anyone else in the thread. Take a moment to catch your breath and actually read what people are writing.

America clearly has a gun problem. Utah makes it incredibly easy for people who shouldn't have access to guns, to purchase them. Charlie was vehemently against gun control. It is ironic that he died in a shooting, especially after that "gun deaths are necessary" quote.
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What I read was some comments saying he essentially had it coming for advocating legal gun ownership

I’ve no doubt that if someone murdered a prominent left-wing figure there would be months of outrage here. And to be clear, I’d agree unconditionally.

Political violence is always wrong regardless of the source.
 
With all the negative and hateful things he's said about women and minorities I'm not sure how anyone is surprised. He died for his shitty beliefs and now he'll be treated as martyr. But no one likes political violence. This is a bad path we've taken as a nation.
 
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el diablo said:
What I read was some comments saying he essentially had it coming for advocating legal gun ownership
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That's not what anyone wrote in this thread at least.

el diablo said:
I’ve no doubt that if someone murdered a prominent left-wing figure there would be months of outrage here. And to be clear, I’d agree unconditionally.
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You mean when a Democrat was assassinated and another shot at a couple of months ago?

2025 shootings of Minnesota legislators - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

el diablo said:
Political violence is always wrong regardless of the source.
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Eeeeeh, not really, that's too simplistic. If someone shot and killed Hitler would that have been wrong? Was it wrong of Washington, Jefferson and the other founding fathers to revolt against the British and found the US? They were soldiers who fought and killed. They started a war to gain their independence.

Same with any other revolution in history. Change has never come about through flowers and chocolates. Note, I'm not saying that Charlie deserved to die. But I also think people have forgotten how bloody history really was and how we've gotten to where we are today.
 
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Vaenyr said:
That's not what anyone wrote in this thread at least.


You mean when a Democrat was assassinated and another shot at a couple of months ago?

2025 shootings of Minnesota legislators - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org


Eeeeeh, not really, that's too simplistic. If someone shot and killed Hitler would that have been wrong? Was it wrong of Washington, Jefferson and the other founding fathers to revolt against the British and found the US? They were soldiers who fought and killed. They started a war to gain their independence.

Same with any other revolution in history. Change has never come about through flowers and chocolates. Note, I'm not saying that Charlie deserved to die. But I also think people have forgotten how bloody history really was and how we've gotten to where we are today.
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So get to the point and unequivocally condemn the murder instead of defending statements that he kinda / sorta deserved it.
You said “I’m not saying that Charlie deserved to die.”
But that’s very weak sauce. Denounce murder without mealy-mouthed qualifications.
 
el diablo said:
So get to the point and unequivocally condemn the murder instead of defending statements that he kinda / sorta deserved it.
You said “I’m not saying that Charlie deserved to die.”
But that’s very weak sauce. Denounce murder without mealy-mouthed qualifications.
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Nah, I don't like removing nuance and context from my posts. I can repeat what I've already said:

- Charlie Kirk was a piece of shit who spent his life trying to make the world a worse place. He actively spread hate, and was inciting violence with the goals of violently eradicating certaib minorites like the trans community.
- I will not miss him and I have no sympathies whatsoever.
- Despite that, I do not celebrate his death.
- I also think "political violence is never okay" is naive and wrong. There are instances where political violence was necessary and resulted in net positives for humanity.

If this isn't enough for you and you still can't see what my positions are, regardless of if you agree or not, then I'm afraid I can't help you.
 
We have decades of data that shows "the other side" (conservatives) being by far the main source of domestic terrorism in the US. Right wing extremism isn't anything new; they don't need "justifications" like a random leftist on an Iron Maiden enthusiast forum saying "Kirk shouldn't have been assassinated, but the world is probably a better place without him and his harmful ideology".

But sure, if it helps, count me in as "part of the problem" I guess lol

Also explaining ≠ excusing. Read what people actually write, not what you are imagining them writing.
 
Vaenyr said:
We have decades of data that shows "the other side" (conservatives) being by far the main source of domestic terrorism in the US. Right wing extremism isn't anything new; they don't need "justifications" like a random leftist on an Iron Maiden enthusiast forum saying "Kirk shouldn't have been assassinated, but the world is probably a better place without him and his harmful ideology".

But sure, if it helps, count me in as "part of the problem" I guess lol
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You’re not inciting violence, you’re just justifying it.
And burying your head in the sand to ignore the violence created by left wing policies that unleash repeat violent criminals on the innocent public again and again.
How about we all just obey the laws and don’t hurt anyone else?
 
el diablo said:
You’re not inciting violence, you’re just justifying it.
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Whatever helps you sleep at night.

el diablo said:
And burying your head in the sand to ignore the violence created by left wing policies that unleash repeat violent criminals on the innocent public again and again.
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Now you're just making bullshit up. It's funny how somehow everything is the left's fault.

el diablo said:
How about we all just obey the laws and don’t hurt anyone else?
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Tell that to the conservatives:

- Who are overwhelmingly responsible for extremist violence.
- Who are overrepresented in child sexual abuse cases.
- Who voted for a convicted felon and pedophile.

Once again: Take a deep breath. You are overemptional and fighting with strawmen. You are not engaging with what people are actually saying or writing. You're putting words into our mouths, for what, to feel superior? Chill out, take a moment, cool down and then you can try again, alright?
 
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Diesel 11 said:
How about you don’t go putting words into my mouth that I neither said nor agree with.
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These are your words:
How is that a gloating statement? He was killed by policies he pushed.
I didn’t put them in your mouth.
You indicated that his policies - gun ownership- was what killed him.
No, a murderer killed him .
And it’s true that at this point nobody knows what insane viewpoint inspired this particular murderer, your quote still says it was his opinions “that killed him.”
You’re a psychopath.
 
Vaenyr said:
Whatever helps you sleep at night.


Now you're just making bullshit up. It's funny how somehow everything is the left's fault.


Tell that to the conservatives:

- Who are overwhelmingly responsible for extremist violence.
- Who are overrepresented in child sexual abuse cases.
- Who voted for a convicted felon and pedophile.

Once again: Take a deep breath. You are overemptional and fighting with strawmen. You are not engaging with what people are actually saying or writing. You're putting words into our mouths, for what, to feel superior? Chill out, take a moment, cool down and then you can try again, alright?
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Your initial response to someone being murdered was ‘Welp’. I don’t need to make anything up.
 
el diablo said:
These are your words:
How is that a gloating statement? He was killed by policies he pushed.
I didn’t put them in your mouth.
You indicated that his policies - gun ownership- was what killed him.
No, a murderer killed him .
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A murderer with a gun. We need better regulations (please note: I am not saying we should ban all guns, just restrict them more than they currently are) but people like Kirk have lobbied against them for years. Kirk said that gun deaths were an acceptable trade, and now he's a victim of what he himself said.

el diablo said:
You’re a psychopath.
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Thanks for the diagnosis?? I guess???

I'm so thrown aback by this comment, so I guess I'll actually explain how I'm feeling right now. Shock. Hate the guy and his political takes. I think he was helping to further the divide that is occurring in the US, which is leading to political violence. He helped dehumanize people with his stances. How many videos are we gonna see from people like Kirk, Shapiro, Crowder, in which it's all about "yadda yadda DESTROYS woke libtard feminist"?

In 2004 Jon Stewart went on CNN's Crossfire and said the same thing. This shit isn't debate, it's just making issues with nuance become black and white. It's feeding into our tribal instincts. We all want to pick a side and gloat about how much better we are. I know I'm guilty of this. I also hate when people I agree with take this mindset, even though I recognize why things are spun this way - this shit sells.

All of that aside, I saw the notification on my phone. I was surprised. When I learned he actually died, all I felt was shock. I'm not the most fearless person. Living in this country has given me a fear of being shot. All I could think about while reading about what happened and seeing the clips is: what would it have felt like in that situation? Feeling the pain, feeling your body crumple?

Violence has become a part of our every day life in America and it numbs you. I am not sad per se about the person killed but I am sad that this is the way things are. A person can say "some gun deaths are a good trade for having guns". The same guy has also said that he hates empathy. I'm sorry, I have too much empathy for this. My heart bleeds with every new report about a person being killed, it bleeds when the only political action is a tweet for thoughts and prayers, and it bleeds when bad faith actors try to spin this violence into their own political issues instead of addressing the root problems.

Well, I thought I had empathy anyway. But your diagnosis is making me reconsider this. What does a psychopath respond to this? Go fuck yourself?
 
I think what has happened is truly awful. It is despicable. He did not deserve to get murdered while participating in discourse, and you don't solve problems by violence and Leftist public figures are condemning, and should continue to do so, this horrific act.

That being said, all this talk about the violent left. Some on the Right are now calling for reciprocal killings! Matt Walsh called for the prosecution and execution (!) of a Democratic mayor the other day. Fairly recently a Democratic politician was shot to death in her bed, and Trump put out a small statement and then proceeded to go to the attack. When Nancy Pelosi's husband was attacked in his home by this MAGA fanatic that wanted to murder Pelosi, Trump and the Right ridiculed them both. The assassination attempt where Trump got hit by shrapnel or a bullet, was carried out by a former supporter, not a "leftist". Let's not pretend that the Right don't outright rejoice over violence towards the Left and that the rightwingers on here are all but silent on crimes committed by this administration, on violence towards Leftist public figures, yet are eager to claim moral superiority. Yep, I do realize there is some whatsaboutism going on here, but as a separate issue, I find the hypocrisy appaling.

Trump thought it was unnecessary to call the Governor in the state where the Dem Politician was murdered. Vance however called him. https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/tru...ta-shootings-calls-grossly/story?id=122870353
 
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el diablo said:
Your initial response to someone being murdered was ‘Welp’. I don’t need to make anything up.
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To be fair, that was my initial post here. By that point I had written dozens of posts about that matter on Reddit and private chats as well.

And yeah, of course my response for an evil human being dying was "welp". He was genuinely evil and - I repeat - advocating for the violent eradication of all trans people.

Would you clutch your pearls for people who celebrated when Hitler died? Will you be offended when people will be happy that Putin's finally gone?

Note, that I specifically said multiple times that I'm not even celebrating his death. I simply stated that I have no sympathies that a horrible and evil human being died because of the ideals he stood for (namely that the 2A requires gun deaths every year). He spent his time normalizing school shootings, only to end up being another data point in a school shooting statistic.

With that out of the way: Do you condemn Washington, Jefferson, Hamilton and the boys for their political violence? Or are you just a massive hypocrite that needs to feel superior to others?
 
Also about the "violent left" thing:

According to the ADL and FBI data, over 75–95% of ideologically motivated killings in the U.S. over the last decade have been committed by far-right extremists.

The numbers are pretty clear about that. Ben Shapiro would say "facts don't care about your feelings". But I'm sure this will only receive a laughing emoji at best, right @Detective Beauregard? It must be exhausting to be objectively wrong all the time and not being able to fight back due to a lack of facts.


Sources:

www.fbi.gov

FBI Releases 2024 Active Shooter Incidents in the United States Report | Federal Bureau of Investigation

Today, the FBI releases the 2024 Active Shooter Incidents in the United States report to provide an overview of active shooter incidents and responses to help law enforcement, other first responders, and the public better understand the levels of threats associated with active shooter incidents.
www.fbi.gov www.fbi.gov


www.statista.com

Share of domestic extremist-related killings by perpetrator affiliation U.S. 2023| Statista

Between 2014 and 2023, ** percent of all domestic extremist-related killings in the United States were carried out by right-wing extremists.
www.statista.com www.statista.com

nij.ojp.gov

What NIJ Research Tells Us About Domestic Terrorism

Militant, nationalistic, white supremacist violent extremism has increased in the United States. In fact, the number of far-right attacks continues to outpace all other types of terrorism and domestic violent extremism.
nij.ojp.gov nij.ojp.gov

www.ajc.com

Opinion: The rising worry over far-right terrorism

A man stands accused of targeting Atlanta for a mass shooting to spark a race war. We should worry.
www.ajc.com www.ajc.com


extremismterms.adl.org

Murder and Extremism in the United States in 2020

extremismterms.adl.org extremismterms.adl.org

extremismterms.adl.org

Murder and Extremism in the United States in 2019

extremismterms.adl.org extremismterms.adl.org

www.independent.co.uk

Right-wing terrorists killed three times more people in US than Islamists in past decade

Increase should 'serve as a wake-up call to everyone about the deadly consequences of hateful rhetoric' says Anti-Defamation League
www.independent.co.uk www.independent.co.uk

 
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