USA Politics

[Vaenyr]

In that case, if a huge chunk of the populace (enough to win democratic elections) are morons (predominantly the people that disagree with you of course, conveniently) what do you propose to do? IQ test to be eligible for voting?

I never said only the other side has morons. "My side" has plenty of them. In fact, the average voter, regardless of political affiliation, is largely uninformed and ignorant. No need to assume my positions or put words in my mouth; I'm more than happy to elaborate on my positions

And no, I'm against IQ testing. I wish we had better educational systems that teach people critical thinking skills, how to navigate a post-truth society dominated by social media and ragebait, to determine the quality of a source.

I am not offended i can name call and slag off with the best of them but find it tedious and try to avoid that sort of thing just because someone doesn`t share my opinion, regardless of the subject.
The name calling from the left is more visible than from the right in the UK as we have a left biased media, certainly TV. You tube is a more even mix albeit a dangerous rabbit hole obviously.

Name calling is for school playgrounds is my opinion and that was my main point of posting on this thread regarding the view of the `right`

From what I've seen "left biased media" couldn't be further from the truth, but that's not really the main point of the thread, so I won't dwell on that.

I don't know or really care if name calling is immature or childish. A huge chunk of the problems we are facing globally nowadays were directly caused by various right-wing administrations, I have no interest in taking the high road. If I see a fool, I will call them as such.

As an example: The US is still dealing with the consequences of Reagan to this day. Trump's actions from 2016 onwards are felt today and what is happening right now will be felt for decades to come, globally.

Also, the majority of UK media is leaning right, not left. That's not really up for debate, that's just a fact. Even the BBC that you mention has shifted further right over the years. We could argue that they are centrist in a way, but calling the BBC an example of left leaning media is laughable.

I'll reiterate my main point though:

Fascists don't solve problems, they only make things worse. We can see the outcome of far right populist agendas in the US, where things are objectively getting worse and worse. Anyone who thinks Reform is somehow going to be the sole example of far right populism that won't fall into the same old issues and patterns... Well, I've got a bridge and various other pieces of infrastructure to sell them.

And because I don't want it to be brushed aside, it bears repeating:

You might vote for Reform for one particular issue but with your vote endorse every other position of theirs as well. It's time to be honest and let people take responsibility for their choices. We are talking about adults here, right? It's convenient how conservatives and moderates always try to shift the blame unto progressives instead of admiting that whole-ass adults made dumbass choices and have fucked up. Like the earlier mention of the the left somehow being responsible for not keeping the votes of morons who fall for populist lies and propaganda.

Also, also: Once more this thread is drifting off course and ignoring the fact that the world's most powerful man was part of a literal pedophile ring and a convicted sexual abuser, because a centrist felt the need to quote state sponsored propaganda in an effort to attack the left once again, which cause this whole derailement. Wonderful.

 

[UpTheIrons]

I never said only the other side has morons. "My side" has plenty of them. In fact, the average voter, regardless of political affiliation, is largely uninformed and ignorant. No need to assume my positions or put words in my mouth; I'm more than happy to elaborate on my positions

And no, I'm against IQ testing. I wish we had better educational systems that teach people critical thinking skills, how to navigate a post-truth society dominated by social media and ragebait, to determine the quality of a source.

I suppose the question I am trying to answer is, if you assert that society is largely composed of 'morons' and under a democratic system the vote of the 'moron' is worth just the same as the vote of the 'intellectual', then what is your solution to that issue?

 

[Vaenyr]

Also to keep things in perspective about why I said blaming the left for certain voter behavior is disingenuous:

Last year, after Biden dropped out, we had a member here who expressed that he wasn't really interested in politics. A regulr guy who just wanted to grill, have a BBQ in his backyard and drink some beers. Raised valid concerns about the enoconomy and a couple of other things.

Multiple members explained to him that for the exact issues he mentioned Harris would've been an objectively better choice and that her proposed policy would actually deal with the issues, while Trump's would make things actively worse (lo and behold, the exact things we warned him about happened and are even worse than we assumed). He ignored everything and said that he doesn't care about the details, he just wants a better economy.

Turns out he was lying all along. He was a staunch Trump supporter radicalized by sites like 4chan and was simply trolling us. He came out and praised Trump's unconstitutional behavior. Hell, he outright used neo nazi slogans. There wasn't a single ounce of good faith behavior in his posts in this thread.

We ("the left") did everything in our power to explain to him patiently (and without condescension) the actual facts. He wasn't interested in any of that. He cared much more about calling ICE on a neighbor with somewhat darker skin (he gleefully admitted to that).

So, to those who try to flip the responsibility and who claim that the left is to blame for not convincing such an individual otherwise I say:
Fuck no. Why isn't it the right wing's responsibility to not cultivate neo nazis?

I suppose the question I am trying to answer is, if you assert that society is largely composed of 'morons' and under a democratic system the vote of the 'moron' is worth just the same as the vote of the 'intellectual', then what is your solution to that issue?

I literally addressed that point in the comment you quoted. I'll copy/paste it:

I wish we had better educational systems that teach people critical thinking skills, how to navigate a post-truth society dominated by social media and ragebait, to determine the quality of a source.

 

[UpTheIrons]

I literally addresses that point in the comment you quoted. I'll copy/paste it:

I wish we had better educational systems that teach people critical thinking skills, how to navigate a post-truth society dominated by social media and ragebait, to determine the quality of a source.

I'm not being facetious in asking this, I genuinely want to better understand your point of view. As you have indicated in previous comments that you believe that many Western democracies are embarking on a downward spiral towards fascism by way of far-right populism, do you think this wish is remotely likely to come true before that process is completed?

 

[Vaenyr]

I'm not being facetious in asking this, I genuinely want to better understand your point of view. As you have indicated in previous comments that you believe that many Western democracies are embarking on a downward spiral towards fascism by way of far-right populism, do you think this wish is remotely likely to come true before that process is completed?

Just to make sure I'm not misunderstanding your question:
Wish = better informed voters
Process = descent into fascism
correct?

Unfortunately no, I don't think we are able to change things in time. We are in the middle of this. People are refusing to learn from past mistakes and are seemingly desperate to get parties like the AFD in Germany in power, despite them not having any experience governing, not having any realistic policies, and also making blatantly unconstitutional promises.

Add to that the fact that somehow the left gets blamed for the problems of the right.
Germany had 16 years of conservative rule, 4 of center-left - which was actively sabotaged by one of the coalition partners, who are right wing - and now conservative rule. The center-left coalition was blamed for issues directly caused by the previous 16-year conservative rule. Similar thing with the Dems and the GOP in America. The latter routinely tanks the economy, the former manages to correct things, but the voters return to the GOP again under the objectively wrong premise that they are better for the economy, when the data very clearly shows that to be wrong.

It would take decades of effort, work and clever politics to make things better, but I'm afraid that's utopic. Hell, take climate change for example. It is blatantly obvious and clearly supported by facts that humans are impacting it and are making everything worse, yet you have a big chunk of the population who puts their feelings over any facts, chooses to believe populists instead of experts and scientists, just because "their team" chose to make this a culture war issue. On top of that you have mainstream media which are either dominated by right wing influence or are far too lenient to the right while being actively hostile to the left, and I'm left wondering if there's anything we can do to change any of that.

But I can guarantee you: moving to the right, abandoning minorities and throwing them under the bus, and voting for fascists will only make things worse, not better.

 

[UpTheIrons]

Just to make sure I'm not misunderstanding your question:
Wish = better informed voters
Process = descent into fascism
correct?

Yes, exactly correct.

Unfortunately no, I don't think we are able to change things in time. We are in the middle of this. People are refusing to learn from past mistakes and are seemingly desperate to get parties like the AFD in Germany in power, despite them not having any experience governing, not having any realistic policies, and also making blatantly unconstitutional promises.

Add to that the fact that somehow the left gets blamed for the problems of the right.
Germany had 16 years of conservative rule, 4 of center-left - which was actively sabotaged by one of the coalition partners, who are right wing - and now conservative rule. The center-left coalition was blamed for issues directly caused by the previous 16-year conservative rule. Similar thing with the Dems and the GOP in America. The latter routinely tanks the economy, the former manages to correct things, but the voters return to the GOP again under the objectively wrong premise that they are better for the economy, when the data very clearly shows that to be wrong.

It would take decades of effort, work and clever politics to make things better, but I'm afraid that's utopic. Hell, take climate change for example. It is blatantly obvious and clearly supported by facts that humans are impacting it and are making everything worse, yet you have a big chunk of the population who puts their feelings over any facts, chooses to believe populists instead of experts and scientists, just because "their team" chose to make this a culture war issue. On top of that you have mainstream media which are either dominated by right wing influence or are far too lenient to the right while being actively hostile to the left, and I'm left wondering if there's anything we can do to change any of that.

But I can guarantee you: moving to the right, abandoning minorities and throwing them under the bus, and voting for fascists will only make things worse, not better.

Though you lean a good way further to the left than I do, I share similarly pessimistic sentiments about the direction of travel, but it seems a shame to simply be resigned to society having to 'learn the hard way' again. Not that I have a ready-made solution up my sleeve unfortunately!

 

[Vaenyr]

Though you lean a good way further to the left than I do, I share similarly pessimistic sentiments about the direction of travel, but it seems a shame to simply be resigned to society having to 'learn the hard way' again. Not that I have a ready-made solution up my sleeve unfortunately!

Being hopeful can result in getting hurt.
When Biden won in 2020 I was hopeful that some of Trump's actions could be undone (reading the posts from back then in this thread is bleak nowadays). I hoped that Harris, despite not being a great candidate, would win and that over the years some things I personally care about (for example climate, lgbtq rights) would be better than they've been in the past. I was in for a rude awakening when Trump ended up winning again.

Not everything is doom and gloom, but to me it feels like we're standing at the edge of a cliff, some tugging at us to get use to safety, others trying to drag us into the abyss. Hopefully we'll be able to turn things around, and I reeeeally hope we'll do it in time. We are already repeating some of the mistakes of the previous century, no need to go "all the way".

 

[Mosh]

Given the data that we were given over the last ten years and the experience of a first Trump term, I do think you have to be stupid to have voted for him last year. I understand the implication there is that a plurality (if not outright majority) of Americans are stupid, but that is a serious societal problem right now that I believe is largely brought on by brain rot and people’s social media diets.

I’m not sure how to fix it, although I don’t advocate for anybody losing the right to vote.

 

[Yax]

I’m not sure how to fix it, although I don’t advocate for anybody losing the right to vote.

No, that's a growing MAGA position. The Man should cast the vote for his Family. The point of that is to take away women's right to vote. What a disgusting party.

 

[Fozzie]

I never said only the other side has morons. "My side" has plenty of them. In fact, the average voter, regardless of political affiliation, is largely uninformed and ignorant. No need to assume my positions or put words in my mouth; I'm more than happy to elaborate on my positions

And no, I'm against IQ testing. I wish we had better educational systems that teach people critical thinking skills, how to navigate a post-truth society dominated by social media and ragebait, to determine the quality of a source.


From what I've seen "left biased media" couldn't be further from the truth, but that's not really the main point of the thread, so I won't dwell on that.

I don't know or really care if name calling is immature or childish. A huge chunk of the problems we are facing globally nowadays were directly caused by various right-wing administrations, I have no interest in taking the high road. If I see a fool, I will call them as such.

As an example: The US is still dealing with the consequences of Reagan to this day. Trump's actions from 2016 onwards are felt today and what is happening right now will be felt for decades to come, globally.

Also, the majority of UK media is leaning right, not left. That's not really up for debate, that's just a fact. Even the BBC that you mention has shifted further right over the years. We could argue that they are centrist in a way, but calling the BBC an example of left leaning media is laughable.

I'll reiterate my main point though:

Fascists don't solve problems, they only make things worse. We can see the outcome of far right populist agendas in the US, where things are objectively getting worse and worse. Anyone who thinks Reform is somehow going to be the sole example of far right populism that won't fall into the same old issues and patterns... Well, I've got a bridge and various other pieces of infrastructure to sell them.

And because I don't want it to be brushed aside, it bears repeating:

You might vote for Reform for one particular issue but with your vote endorse every other position of theirs as well. It's time to be honest and let people take responsibility for their choices. We are talking about adults here, right? It's convenient how conservatives and moderates always try to shift the blame unto progressives instead of admiting that whole-ass adults made dumbass choices and have fucked up. Like the earlier mention of the the left somehow being responsible for not keeping the votes of morons who fall for populist lies and propaganda.

Also, also: Once more this thread is drifting off course and ignoring the fact that the world's most powerful man was part of a literal pedophile ring and a convicted sexual abuser, because a centrist felt the need to quote state sponsored propaganda in an effort to attack the left once again, which cause this whole derailement. Wonderful.

You are clearly far more Politically Knowledgeable than me which i imagine my simplistic view irritates you slightly. As i said i try to stay away from the political world and will continue to do that where possible as it isn`t the most enjoyable of subjects.
I have on this occasion as is my right, aired my views which may or may not align with yours, they are as i have been clear on relating to the UK and not the USA . On that basis i would like to make sure there is no doubt that a right wing tendency in my home land does not mean i am supportive of Trump or his past so please feel free to get back to the point of the thread.

 

[Vaenyr]

You are clearly far more Politically Knowledgeable than me which i imagine my simplistic view irritates you slightly. As i said i try to stay away from the political world and will continue to do that where possible as it isn`t the most enjoyable of subjects.
I have on this occasion as is my right, aired my views which may or may not align with yours, they are as i have been clear on relating to the UK and not the USA . On that basis i would like to make sure there is no doubt that a right wing tendency in my home land does not mean i am supportive of Trump or his past so please feel free to get back to the point of the thread.

No idea about "more knowledgeable", but it is a topic I'm passionate about, which can result in heated posts. I'm sorry if I came across as too hostile. Know that I don't have anything against you personally and I'm also not claiming you're in support of Trump or anything like that. I'm just pointing to him as an example of how things are currently getting worse (in my opinion) and how I believe that the rest of the world would be better served to not follow in his footsteps.

 

[Fozzie]

No idea about "more knowledgeable", but it is a topic I'm passionate about, which can result in heated posts. I'm sorry if I came across as too hostile. Know that I don't have anything against you personally and I'm also not claiming you're in support of Trump or anything like that. I'm just pointing to him as an example of how things are currently getting worse (in my opinion) and how I believe that the rest of the world would be better served to not follow in his footsteps.

No problem with hostility , we are all grown ups and i can see you are passionate. I am not passionate about politics but am passionate about issues around me in my Country and what i see as a decline ,this obviously crosses over in to Politics, it`s inevitable.
I certainly don`t think Farage is great or anything like that but i am massively disappointed with Starmer . Anyway enough of that, this can get back on topic and see you in the various Maiden threads.