Jer
'Til Tomorrow
US Senate passes $95bn package of aid for Ukraine, Israel and Taiwan
After months of wrangling, the long-promised aid is likely to face serious opposition from House Republicans.
www.bbc.com
USA Politics
- Thread starter Genghis Khan
- Start date
www.bbc.com
Diesel 11
As you scream into the web of silence...
Imperialism.
Jer
'Til Tomorrow
They're the only legitimate democracy in the middle east, they recently suffered an attack with parallels to 9/11 and are lashing out in response (similar to what the U.S. did when we got hit), and continuing to support them shows their neighbors that they shouldn't get any ideas about trying to push them from the river to the sea while they're distracted by the war in Gaza.
That said, the way they're handling the war in Gaza is seriously fucked up, and they're not really taking our advice on how to tamp things down, so we need to start creating some public policy separation from them on this. Honestly, we should be pushing behind the scenes to get a no-confidence vote on Netanyahu, and the recent moves to have the U.S. potentially recognize a Palestinian state after the Gaza war ends, even without Israel's support, may be a good idea.
Just as our NATO allies stuck by us when we had a wing nut like Trump calling the shots, the U.S. needs to continue to support Israel for the long haul despite the short-term bullshit Netanyahu is pulling. We just need to do what we can to reduce and/or mitigate the impact of his bad decisions, and to provide whatever aid and refuge we can to Palestinian civilians caught in the crossfire.
Jer
'Til Tomorrow
As I said, if we withhold support it will embolden their neighbors, whose proxies are already pushing the limits.
We have significant differences with Israel over how they're prosecuting this war. We need to be doing everything we can behind the scenes to address that, but in public we have to remain supportive, albeit willing to also publicly challenge their bad decisionmaking.
Imagine what happens in your preferred scenario where the U.S. drops funding for Israel and lets the "Queers For Palestine" crowd drive the messaging. If you're as averse to war as you claim, shouldn't you be against that posture, since it would invite more hostile forces to attack Israel?
Azas
Aliens Activity Area
I don't understand "Queers For Palestine" crowd at all. They would be executed in Palestine only for what they are. What they are thinking? How they can be so ignorant and misinformed is beyond me.
Edit: I saw videos of execution of gays in Palestine. They were dropped from the roofs of the houses. Sick. Hamas must be eradicated.
Edit: I saw videos of execution of gays in Palestine. They were dropped from the roofs of the houses. Sick. Hamas must be eradicated.
Last edited:
Diesel 11
As you scream into the web of silence...
Because the civilians being systematically murdered by Israel are not the same as their leaders. Turns out you can voice your opposition to Palestine's many gay rights issues and also oppose the, let's face it, genocidal framework that Israel has set up.
What are we doing here, people? One in 85 people in Gaza have been killed, most of them civilians. All hospitals have been razed. Families are gathering together to die and we're here talking about giving more money to a country whose leaders have stopped seeing human beings as anything other than bombing targets. Was October 7 bad? Yes; but how can you justify the amount of ordinary people who have been killed? This should sicken everyone.
Vaenyr
Ancient Mariner
It's about principles. Yes, they know that Hamas would kill them. Not all Palestinians are Hamas. Neither are all Palestinians straight for that matter, queer Palestinians exist and survive. With that said, the general idea is that just because Hamas is a terrorist organization doing monstrous shit doesn't mean that a genocide against Palestinians should be tolerated.
The "Queers For Palestine" folks aren't saying "let's go to Palestine, it's going to be awesome!"; they're standing behind their principles and say "no genocide is acceptable and what is happening right now needs to be stopped".
Magnus
Pica Serdica
Jer
'Til Tomorrow
There are two separate issues here. One is how we got to this place, and the other is how things are being handled now.
How did we get here?
- The people of Palestine elected Hamas as their leaders back in 2006.
- Hamas set up military command and control centers and weapons depots in and around the schools, hospitals, and mosques of Gaza and built a maze of tunnels running under civilian areas so any attack on their military capability would cause severe civilian casualties.
- Hamas and other Gazan militant groups fired literally thousands of rockets into Israel in the intervening years.
- On October 7, 2023, Hamas executed an unprovoked incursion into Israel leading to the deaths of at least 1200 people, not to mention all the rapes and maiming and hostage taking. This was the third worst terrorist attack in recorded history based on total deaths, and by far the worst terrorist attack in recorded history based on per capita deaths.
Because Hamas embedded all of their military C&C and resources within the civilian population, there was never going to be any way to counterattack without severe civilian casualties. This was an intentional choice on Hamas's part. Rather than protecting the people who elected them to power, they very intentionally put all of them at maximum risk, then lit up the tinder box.
It is completely unreasonable to expect Israel to not take action to eliminate the threat of the people who attacked them. Hamas ensured that Gazan civilians would bear the brunt of this to make Israel look as bad as possible. But beyond this point, it becomes a question of what constitutes a proportional or just response.
It is sickening, and there are very real arguments to be made that Israel has taken this to an unacceptable extreme by this point. But let's not forget that Hamas was given the option back in December of relinquishing power and all of their weaponry in exchange for a permanent cease fire and a release of all hostages by both sides, and they rejected it. If Hamas cared about the plight of the Gazan people at all, they would have taken the deal. Instead they chose to invite more suffering, because it would make Israel look worse.
Let's also not forget that per capita, October 7th was like fourteen 9/11's for Israel. This isn't something to be minimized. Of course at this point the per capita impact to Gaza's civilian population is much worse than that, and that's why the concerns about where things stand are entirely legitimate.
If Israel doesn't completely eradicate Hamas's military capability, how can they ensure their own security? But if Hamas intentionally wove their military resources into the civilian population, including major centers like schools, hospitals, and mosques, how can Israel eliminate those resources without attacking those civilian centers? And if neighboring countries refuse to take in Gazan refugees, how do you effectively evacuate the civilians before attacking these places?
It's not a simple problem to solve, especially when your entire country is crying for righteous vengeance.
Vaenyr
Ancient Mariner
I don't think there's any attempt by Israel to show restraint or care in their application of force in Gaza. That being said, I generally agree with Jer's point that Hamas created a situation that would intentionally increase civilian casualties. It's just that Netanyahu is such a piece of shit that he's doing exactly what they want.
____no5
Free Man
Had to google it.
I don’t think Trump is any good, he’s just miles better than Biden in my view, even lower than Bush junior and that is quite low already.
chaosapiant
Ancient Marinade
Trump is better than exactly zero people. He's dangerous and he weaponizes his "victimhood" as a way to garner support and sow chaos.
Vaenyr
Ancient Mariner
The thing is that if he weren't so influential and dangerous he could be absolutely hilarious. The man is a walking and mumbling meme-machine. There's so much that he says that you can laugh about, but then you remember that this incompetent fascist puppet was POTUS for 4 years, incited an insurrection and is the front runner for the GOP, and the realization of how dangerous he actually is sinks in.
chaosapiant
Ancient Marinade
He used to be hilarious. Now he's got folks chanting his name when he says shit like letting Russian do whatever they want, or being a dictator for a day, etc. He's too stupid to understand that the world is bigger than just him, which makes him the most dangerous candidate as president we've ever had. At least, I certainly can't remember anyone worse. I'm most left leaning/democrat and would gladly take another 4 years of either Bush over him.
Jer
'Til Tomorrow
Russian Space Lasers confirmed!
