USA Politics

It absolutely boggles my mind how they can consider something four blocks from Ground Zero to be hallowed ground. You don't consider Harrisburg to be hallowed ground because it's down the road from Gettysburg.
 
LooseCannon said:
It absolutely boggles my mind how they can consider something four blocks from Ground Zero to be hallowed ground. You don't consider Harrisburg to be hallowed ground because it's down the road from Gettysburg.
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All I know is that they'd be pretty pissed if they weren't allowed to put their symphonic mega churches wherever they wanted to.
 
Genghis Khan said:
I completely missed this discussion. 
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Welcome back.  Hadn't seen many Genghis posts in a while.  Where you been?

And, gay people can't marry yet.  Ninth Circuit panel extended stay on gay marriages pending a decision on appeal. 
 
I saw that. I'm only surprised because it looked like they were going to not extend the stay. Regardless, it looks like this court battle is going to go down in the SCOTUS eventually - unless, of course, they choose not to hear it, which is a possibility.
 
cornfedhick said:
Welcome back.  Hadn't seen many Genghis posts in a while.  Where you been?

And, gay people can't marry yet.  Ninth Circuit panel extended stay on gay marriages pending a decision on appeal.   
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I was in USA, actually.

Let's hope for the best result on that court decision.
 
LooseCannon said:
It absolutely boggles my mind how they can consider something four blocks from Ground Zero to be hallowed ground.
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That's the thing, they don't. Somebody could have walked up to ground zero, dropped their pants and laid a brown rag doll on the sidewalk next to the ruins, and the republicans would not have cared unless it was a Muslim person. They do not give a flying fuck about ground zero. Most republicans that have spoken out about this (non-)issue don't live anywhere near NYC and were probably not affected AT ALL. And they have absolutely no right to speak for the citizens of NYC, saying this is "offensive" to the victims' families. The Republicans have never given a shit about people's feelings, and they only claim to now because it's an opportunity to repress a religion other than Christianity.

Excuse my language but... ugh.
 
I don't like the idea of a Mosque going up near ground zero, for as someone who lost someone in the 9-11 attacks, I feel it is a slap in the face and rubbing salt in the wound. But as an American I respect their right to build it and agree that NYC made the correct decision in not blocking it's construction.
 
I can appreciate the emotional reaction, mate. I really can. But those Muslims aren't the Muslims who killed people on 9/11. They're Americans, or people who want to be Americans. Note the following isn't directed at you. It's just general frustration with what I'm hearing.

This reminds me of something General Powell said, you know, during the 2008 campaign, when people were saying that Obama's a secret Muslim:

General Colin Powell said:
I'm also troubled by, not what Senator McCain says, but what members of the party say. And it is permitted to be said such things as, "Well, you know that Mr. Obama is a Muslim." Well, the correct answer is, he is not a Muslim, he's a Christian. He's always been a Christian. But the really right answer is, what if he is? Is there something wrong with being a Muslim in this country? The answer's no, that's not America. Is there something wrong with some seven-year-old Muslim-American kid believing that he or she could be president? Yet, I have heard senior members of my own party drop the suggestion, "He's a Muslim and he might be associated terrorists." This is not the way we should be doing it in America.

I feel strongly about this particular point because of a picture I saw in a magazine. It was a photo essay about troops who are serving in Iraq and Afghanistan. And one picture at the tail end of this photo essay was of a mother in Arlington Cemetery, and she had her head on the headstone of her son's grave. And as the picture focused in, you could see the writing on the headstone. And it gave his awards--Purple Heart, Bronze Star--showed that he died in Iraq, gave his date of birth, date of death. He was 20 years old. And then, at the very top of the headstone, it didn't have a Christian cross, it didn't have the Star of David, it had crescent and a star of the Islamic faith. And his name was Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan, and he was an American. He was born in New Jersey. He was 14 years old at the time of 9/11, and he waited until he can go serve his country, and he gave his life. Now, we have got to stop polarizing ourself in this way.
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How is it any different, really…Americans are Americans are Americans, regardless of place of birth, color of skin, religion or irreligion of choice. And Americans who pray to Mecca should get the same respect from the establishment as Americans who pray to Jesus, and those who go to Temple, and those who believe in the teachings of the Buddha, or none at all. The leap from Muslim to terrorist is a terrible one, and a connection that should be battled by everyone. Skin color or religion choice is no reason to brand someone a terrorist, or to brand someone at all. These Muslims aren't building a mosque to offend Americans, or to denigrate the loss of people in NYC and DC on that terrible day; instead, they are celebrating the core idea of America: freedom to establish yourself, and your religion. It so happens to be in a city - the third largest in the world - that was marred by terrorists. Are there no Japanese in Honolulu? Have no Germans visited Israel?

We must remind ourselves that emotional reactions are often the worst kind, especially in these situations. Chances are that most Muslims who want to pray at this place want the same things every other American wants, and most likely, hates what has happened almost 10 years ago in their city. Some of them lost a family member or friend on 9/11. Quite possibly some have lost a family member or friend in the wars following, someone like Kareem Khan, who may pray somewhat differently but still believed in the things that make Americans American. Which, by the way, isn't a faith or creed, but a belief - a fundamental and strong understanding - that all people are equal and have certain freedoms which may not be restricted.
 
Good points LC. We can't lump all Muslims in the same boat and I think the media is responsible for egging alot of this shit on. The politicians need to quit the fucking grand standing on issues like these. Everytime shit like this happens and politicians try to make political capital out of 9-11 related issues, it's like pulling a big scab off.

The reason I love being an American is that we welcome and give protections to everyone. Regardless of religeon, race or politcal beliefs. Maybe this Mosque could be a bridge between Muslims and non-Muslims. Badgering and harrassing people who had nothing to do with the horrible attacks of 9-11 is not only a fucking disgrace, but a waste of time and energy and is a travesty to those who were killed on that day. I think the attention given to the Ground Zero Mosque just may be a distraction from the real dangers facing our world.
 
Nigel Tufnel said:
Badgering and harrassing people who had nothing to do with the horrible attacks of 9-11 is not only a fucking disgrace, but a waste of time and energy and is a travesty to those who were killed on that day.
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EXACTLY!

There are a thousand reasons why Al Qaeda and organizations like them hate the USA. Some of it is because the USA had their fingers in Arab/Muslim countries and were pulling the strings. But I don't think that is all of it. The USA is hated - the West is hated - because there are dangerous ideas here. That's why when the Danish cartoonist drew that cartoon of Mohammed with a bomb for a turban the entire Middle East freaked out. That's why Salman Rushdie had to hide for twenty+ years. Because we say things that offend them, and they can only respond with death.

9/11 was about a thousand things, but the ones we should be focusing on are the ones that got us where we are. That there are people out there who hate the idea that you can have ideas in the West.
 
I must confess I haven't been following this story and am ignorant of the facts.  LC's post, Obama's speech, etc. all seem spot-on.  One question:  Who is the Muslim group and, in light of obvious sensitivities, why do they want their mosque at (near) ground zero -- four blocks is actually pretty close, as North-South blocks in New York are short -- rather than someplace else?  I really don't know the answer, I'm just curious.  Not that it matters -- as Obama said in his speech, they have every right to build it wherever they want on their own property in accordance with local zoning laws. 

This leads to an interesting hypothetical question, though (I'm not at all suggesting these are the true facts):  What if it was an American group of al-Qaeda supporters who openly wanted to put up a mosque or some other structure to celebrate the 9/11 attacks?  Would you folks' views be different under this hypothetical?  Remember: Even offensive speech is protected by the First Amendment.  Ignore the fact that New Yorkers wouldn't allow the structure to survive the first night and that it would probably incite a riot -- i.e., assume there were no public safety issue to worry about -- and focus solely on whether your answers would change?  And if so, why?  If not, why not?  Food for thought. 

EDIT:  700-post milestone.  Whee. 
 
My view would be, as long as they weren't threatening imminent harm, they can do what they want.

For reference, cornfed, the group that is planning this mosque is led by an Imam who worked for both Clinton and Bush Jr. in interfaith work.
 
I think what cornfedhick is outlining has some merit.  If the KKK wanted to build a meeting hall in the same area, I think there would be some thought as to whether or not it would be prudent.  Now, I know there is a huge difference between a normal Muslim temple and Al Qaeda group (and a KKK group for that matter), but I also understand what cfh is asking.

How different is an Al Qaeda group from the KKK, in reference to 'hate'?
 
Wasted CLV said:
I think what cornfedhick is outlining has some merit.  If the KKK wanted to build a meeting hall in the same area, I think there would be some thought as to whether or not it would be prudent.  Now, I know there is a huge difference between a normal Muslim temple and Al Qaeda group (and a KKK group for that matter), but I also understand what cfh is asking.

How different is an Al Qaeda group from the KKK, in reference to 'hate'?
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For purposes of my hypothetical, doesn't really matter if it's Al Qaeda.  Let's assume instead it's the Cornfed Hick All-Muslim Partnership for Infidel Obliteration in North America (or, "CHAMPION"). 
LooseCannon said:
For reference, cornfed, the group that is planning this mosque is led by an Imam who worked for both Clinton and Bush Jr. in interfaith work.
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Seems about as legit and harmless as you can get.  So, this uproar really is just based on a prejudice against Muslims, plain and simple.  That's pretty despicable. 
 
The point is, it's NOT the KK or Terrorists. It's a religion who happens to have had some radicals who blew up a building in the area.

If it were some crazy Christians flying those planes, would anybody be against a church being built in that same spot?
 
Sometimes I think people are just looking for trouble and drama.  Why four blocks from ground zero?  The outcome of this will not be good.  I understand what you are saying LC and I could not agree with you more however some people are not as open minded and optimistic about this.  All they see is hate.  I just hope we can all get past this with out any getting hurt or killed for that matter. 
 
It's all about fear mongering. Both sides of the debate are using the issue of the Mosque to get their other issues and agendas across. Who gives a rat's ass. Any religeous group has the right in this country to build a house of worship.
 
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