USA Politics

Cap Maronis said:
Can someone explain to me about how the conservative movement in Arizona is trying to remove citizenship from babies born to illegal immigrant parents in the US? As in, how are they justifying breaking the 14th amendment about equal protections to all citizens born in the United States.

Now, tell me why it's okay to break the 14th amendment, but dear god if we go anywhere near the 2nd amendment there'll be hell to pay.


I'm so tired of it.

Because they're racist assholes and they can justify anything they want. Another great point The Daily Show made was that the conservatives will complain about people wanting to change the constitution, until they want to. They showed a clip of Glenn Beck saying "I'm sick of these liberals wanting to change the constitution, they want to override the will of the people".  ::)

Forostar said:
The law will provide for this building. This man knows what he's talking about:

Click

This is America!

Yep, he's just stating the obvious though. I think it's sad that he should even have to say that.
 
Well, the Constitution is what it is. Unless you amend it, it's final. That's why I like it so much.
 
@suicidehummer: The conservatives will back off on this one once someone pokes holes through their constitutional hypocrisy.

Also, excuse the language, but it's never going to fucking happen where 3/4ths of state legislatures agree to anything on ANY subject, let alone anything this controversial.
 
Language excused, motherfucker.

It could happen, but it would have to be huge, and also, in a year where a lot of either Democrats or Republicans were elected. It's unlikely, but not impossible. All the Amendments were unlikely; hell, the Union had to strongarm the Reconstruction Amendments through, and as you are well aware, they are the most important of all the Amendments.
 
Yes, indeed. I do agree with the Conservatives on some things, like protection of the second amendment, but it's idiots like Palin and Glenn Beck that make it impossible for me to take them seriously. It was only because of McCain that an idiot like Palin had any chance at a career in Washington.

Forostar said:
The law will provide for this building. This man knows what he's talking about:

Click

This is America!

You know, when Yahoo! had that video in their news section, there was not a single comment that was supporting what Obama said. All a bunch of idiots saying ""NObama has again proven he will go down in history as the worst president" and even worse was the statistic in the article that 70% of Americans were against the mosque. Where did they take that survey, Alabama?
 
It's ridiculous. I mean…religious freedom. That's one of the founding principles of the American colonies, let alone part of the First Amendment.
 
Invader said:
It's an interesting system you guys have there, with a court being able to make such a major ruling.  Not to mention, your system of courts is very confusing (Fifth Circuit?  Ninth Circuit?).  And your constitution with all its amendments...  But then, with the way Democrats and Republicans bicker over the smallest things, I guess it's a good thing someone is taking things forward. ;)
The idea is not for the Court to legislate or "take things forward."  Indeed, many legal scholars, and the most respected SCt justices (e.g., Oliver Wendell Holmes), feel that the Court should not legislate policy.  That is for the legislators, whom are elected to make policy, or the voters directly as in the case of Prop 8.  Rather, the Court is supposed to determine whether legislation runs afoul of basic rights set forth in the Constitution.  So, the issue presumably would turn on whether homosexual couples have a Constitutional right to be treated the same as straight couples.  (That may be an oversimplification of all the arguments that may be made, but you get the basic idea.)  If so, then it's unconstitutional, and thus illegal, to ban gay marriages.  If not, then voters or legislators can probably ban gay marriage. Personally, though I believe that gay consenting adults should be allowed to do whatever the fuck they want, I very seriously doubt whether that is a right protected by the Constitution, and would be disappointed if the Court read that into the Constitution.  Note, this is not an issue of privacy, and what gays can do behind closed doors.  This is an issue of whether the state can, as a matter of public policy, decide whether it wants to encourage non-traditional marital arrangements the same way it encourages man-woman family unions, or whether it is Constitutionally REQUIRED to treat gay marriages the same way.  One interesting potential angle may be a freedom of religion issue -- marriage is a sacrament in the Catholic faith and is viewed by many as a union recognized by God.  If gays believe the same and want to practice the same, and a church recognizes the union, then why should the state favor one set of religious believers over another?  This implicates both the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment, I would think, and may be the strongest argument, in my mind, for a Constitutional protection of gay marriage, if not the strongest argument as a policy matter. 
 
Have you read the decision from Perry v. Governator, cfh? I have, and he makes a pretty good reason as to why Due Process and Equal Protection apply in this case.
 
cornfedhick, while I see your point, I'd sure like to point out that religions infringe upon each other in many ways all the time.

After all, if marriage is indeed sacrament, would it not be so far as to say that worship within a temple or cathedral is sacramental as well? Well, okay, I'm from a Jewish family and I fit somewhere between agnostic and atheist (it really depends on how apathetic I feel), my belief of not attending worship services hurts what they hold to be sacramental.

I'd also like to point out, while the freedom of expression is protected by the constitution, we are also protected from matters of the church in how our union is governed. Therefore, there needs to be a pretty damn good reason besides religious fervor to restrict the rights of those who do not practice that faith. The prop 8 court case has proven that there are no good reasons so far.

Additionally, the campaign for Prop 8 was financed mostly out of state by puppet organizations run by the Mormon church in Utah, that's right not even the Mormon churches of California could muster the financial power that Utah's could in this California measure. Tell me where my states rights are protected or my separation from church and state is when the Mormon church comes from the rockies and tells me what gay people in my community can and can't do.

Furthermore, the will of the people was about a 51-49 percent majority on this issue, and at MOST 52-48. Not exactly an overriding majority to restrict the rights of others.

I guess it comes down to that I feel that what consenting adults do is none of my business, and nor do I really care. Trust me when I tell you that I've dated women that make what goes on in most homosexual bedrooms seem tame by comparison. I'd say I deserve a high five, but I think I'm more traumatized than anything else.

In the end, I think the only way everyone could get what they want is if marriage no longer existed in the legal sphere, and that all adult couples have civil unions, whilst various faiths can perform marriage ceremonies if they so choose. But that'll never happen, therefore the only sensible option is to extend these rights to law-abiding, tax-paying citizens. And we will as a nation by 2025 if we still exist.
 
To me, all of that is meaningless, because the SCOTUS has already said that marriage is a right.
 
LooseCannon said:
To me, all of that is meaningless, because the SCOTUS has already said that marriage is a right.

I agree. Just kind of playing devil's advocate and refuting those points on that level.


Of course the conservative response to that is, gays have the right to marry members of the opposite sex.


Honestly, I think that what's going to happen is that the Supreme Court is going to ignore this case, take the one about it being an issue of state rights, and thus those who have legal and those who have it banned are going to be the status quo for a bit. California will remain legal, likely, and it's just going to be a slow cultural shift as older conservatives (I hate to phrase it like this) die off.

Ironically, gays being allowed to marry always seemed like a conservative idea to me. Y'know, government not limiting the rights of people and all. Funny what a religious constituency will do.
 
Seems like I've fallen behind in the conversation, but thought I'd give my two cents anyway since people replied to my post.

LooseCannon said:
It's how one avoids tyranny of the majority.
Or, proportional representation works pretty well too. 

The Circuits are just areas broken up for the purpose of federal appeals. The US is too big a country to have only one appeals court.
So the Circuits are above State-level supreme courts, but the US Supreme Court is still above the circuits, correct?  Or am I totally lost?  I guess I should just humble up and read on it a bit.


To this I'm tempted to say: duh. :)  I meant the amendments were confusing, not the constitution itself, since the Finnish system doesn't use "amendments" in the same way as the US.  Our constitution was rewritten in 1999 (originally from 1906/1919), which to me seems somewhat more practical in the long run.  Also, there's no need to refer to a specific amendment, just the constitution, which makes it easier for the layman to understand as well. E.g. it's more understandable to refer to "constitutional freedom of speech" than the "first amendment".

On the other hand, I realise that the American way creates a certain continuity and holds more respect for the original constitution.  Rewriting the constitution would be politically rather difficult if not impossible given the reverence that Americans have for the constitution and the will of the founding fathers.  That respect is anyway in many ways well deserved with the oldest democracy in the world.

cornfedhick said:
The idea is not for the Court to legislate or "take things forward."  Indeed, many legal scholars, and the most respected SCt justices (e.g., Oliver Wendell Holmes), feel that the Court should not legislate policy.  That is for the legislators, whom are elected to make policy, or the voters directly as in the case of Prop 8.  Rather, the Court is supposed to determine whether legislation runs afoul of basic rights set forth in the Constitution.

Sorry for my rough language there, but it just seems to me that courts have a lot more power there than here, and issues like gay marriage (which shouldn't be an issue in the first place in my opinion) are always up to the legislator here, not the courts.  But, you have a much larger country and much older constitution, so I guess it shouldn't be a surprise that systems are different.
 
LooseCannon said:
Have you read the decision from Perry v. Governator, cfh?
I have, and I think Walker strains a bit to get the result he wants.  (Judges do it all the time, there's even a name for the study of this phenomenon, "legal realism.")  He also cites a fair number of "substantive due process" cases to get there, which are indeed law, but many scholars think they overstep what Courts should be doing, including at least four Justices on the Supreme Court.  (Most of these cases are considered to be more liberal-leaning, though the irony is that the first substantive due process case to read into the Constitution a "right" that really isnt there was the hard-core conservative free-market Lochner decision prohibiting restrictions on work hours in bakeries.  That case read into the Constitution a right to freely contract, which has since been discredited.)  These two things lead to Shadow's point: Courts legislating when they probably shouldn't.  Let me be clear so no one is offended: I think gay people should be allowed to marry, and voters should pass laws saying so.  Actually, I think Legislators should pass those laws, not voters, and as a California resident I despise all the Propositions, because I simply don't believe in direct democracy -- it leads to bad laws like Proposition 8.  I just question whether it is really a constitutional right such that Legislatures have no say in the matter. 

As a policy matter, I would be surprised if the SCOTUS eventually takes this case, as I noted above, for a number of reasons.  One of them is that it is too political right now.  Another is that they probably think that, regardless of the outcome, eventually a state will allow gay marriages via legislative policy, and the Full Faith and Credit Clause probably forces other states to recognize those marriages.  In short, it is only a matter of time before this becomes a moot issue anyway. Let's hope so.       
One other thought: I actually think Walker's decision was well-written and fairly clever.  He is a smart judge.  He is assuming that this case will go to the SCOTUS, and I have read that he crafted the decision to single out and influence Justice Kennedy, on the assumption (probably a correct one) that he would be the swing vote if the Court decided to take the case.  But first, the Ninth Circuit.  I will be very curious to see the panel that eventually decides the case, as the Ninth Circuit has a lot of judges ranging from the very liberal to the very conservative.  The Chief Judge of the Circuit, Judge Kozinski, falls into the latter group, by the way.   
 
Invader said:
Sorry for my rough language there,

Not at all, don't worry about it. Respect is good, but to be critical as well. I think it's interesting (and healthy) when foreigners study eachother's democracies.
 
Cap Maronis said:
cornfedhick, while I see your point
Based on your post, I'm not really sure you do...though you are no doubt correct that Prop 8 supporters are likely comprised mostly of either religious people who think the state shouldn't sanction a mortal sin, or just ignorant bigots.  (Or both.) 

For the record, I voted against Prop 8.
 
LooseCannon said:
Well, the Constitution is what it is. Unless you amend it, it's final. That's why I like it so much.

Constitutions, like laws, can be changed, and they should be revised every once in a while to see if new circumstances don't warrant that. Unfortunately, in most modern democracies, political partisanship will be the main obstacle for such revision.
 
cornfedhick said:
One other thought: I actually think Walker's decision was well-written and fairly clever.  He is a smart judge.  He is assuming that this case will go to the SCOTUS, and I have read that he crafted the decision to single out and influence Justice Kennedy, on the assumption (probably a correct one) that he would be the swing vote if the Court decided to take the case.

That's exactly the thought I had when I read it, and basically how I covered the decision on my blog. I agree with you that he reached a bit, but his argument is also very eloquent. It's the sort of reaching that has been successful in the past in these sorts of cases, especially with Kennedy (Lawrence v. Texas comes to mind as the big one where he broke with the conservative four).

Anyway, I will be surprised if the Prop 8 folk push for this case to go quickly now that the stay on gay marriage has lifted, or will be lifted. As far as they're concerned, the longer they can wait for Scalia to pop his clogs, the better.
 
cornfedhick said:
Based on your post, I'm not really sure you do

I do, I do! I absolutely think it's entirely lame of the majority of representatives in the state legislature more or less being for gay marriage but too afraid politically to do anything about it. That's why it had to be judicial.

At any rate, it should surprise no one that a case of rights and acceptance in the US will be a long slow march rather than a quick change of the system.

It is odd however, to hear more republicans softening on gay issues, and things like marijuana in some sort of attempt to sway voters, or maybe just that a lot of the old voices are dying off. I don't really know.
 
Cap Maronis said:
It is odd however, to hear more republicans softening on gay issues, and things like marijuana in some sort of attempt to sway voters, or maybe just that a lot of the old voices are dying off. I don't really know.

Here's hoping that it's because the GOP is returning to its libertarian, economics-oriented roots and is drifting away from the Religious Right that seemingly coopted it for many years.  Whether you agree or disagree with the former is fine, but I don't think anyone on this forum thinks that the Religious Right should have political power.  I don't like when governments try to legislate morality -- as opposed to truly criminal behavior, such as child molestation, for example, which also obviously is morally wrong.  That said, and going back to the prior discussion about gay marriages, the key distinction is this (oversimplification alert!):  I think the government can legislate morality under the Constitution -- I just think that, for policy reasons, it should not do so, at least in this particular instance. 
 
wsoul1 said:
Good news! Less government interference in peoples individuality is always a positive in my book.


I completely missed this discussion.  I'm glad gays can marry in California -- again.  That's about the only thing going right in that State right now.

This is a great point, by the way.  :ok:

Suicidehummer said:
You know, when Yahoo! had that video in their news section, there was not a single comment that was supporting what Obama said. All a bunch of idiots saying ""NObama has again proven he will go down in history as the worst president" and even worse was the statistic in the article that 70% of Americans were against the mosque. Where did they take that survey, Alabama?

It is sad to see the anti-Muslim sentiment in many parts of USA. 
 
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