USA Politics

srfc said:
Your presuming there that the people looting are genuine protestors who then decided to loot. Which no doubt some are, but there's probably a fair amount of looters who are just opportunists who have no interest in any protests.
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Probably, yes. There's also bound to be some people who are "looking for action" - the teenage edgelords and thrill seekers.
 
Being "tired of the lockdown" is a bullshit, insulting excuse. Everyone is tired of it, going out to protest against the lockdown isn't gonna help anyone.
 
Onhell said:
My fear is NOTHING will happen. Like the L.A riots and Furgesson protests before these.... they'll ammount to nothing. I hope that isn't the case.
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You are, sadly, probably correct. Destruction and violence will change the narrative and result in, if anything, harsher restrictions.

Night Prowler said:
Being "tired of the lockdown" is a bullshit, insulting excuse. Everyone is tired of it, going out to protest against the lockdown isn't gonna help anyone.
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You clearly don't know a lot of twenty-something entitled Americans who can't go out for brunch.
 
Onhell said:
Those methods have always been there.
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And? Is doesn't prove the ought.

Onhell said:
Right now a lot of (white) people are putting all these cherry picked MLK quotes about peaceful protests during the civil rights movement. News flash, it was violent. He was one of the most hated men in America during the 60s and the people quoting him today would probably be the firsts to condemn him and celebrate his death back then.
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Interesting anecdote, but irrelevant.

Onhell said:
Malcolm X pushed for violence, MLK said looting is the language of the unheard.
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I don't think either Malcolm X or MLK were these "can't-do-wrong" messiah-like figures, so that proves absolutely nothing. I disagree with the politics of both a fair amount. Does the good outweigh the bad? Yeah, probably. Doesn't mean there wasn't anything "bad" going on. Malcolm X actively advocated for black separatism for a long while also. MLK's point about looting is absolute nonsense.

Onhell said:
It's very privilidged and comfy to tell people how to do it.
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We are not supposed to have an opinion on the issue, then?

Onhell said:
I think what is going on now is perfectly fine.
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Having a utilitarian "the ends are good so the means don't matter" outlook on the issue is fine - the problem is you're also defending out of context acts here as if they are relevant to the cause. There's nothing about looting random businesses during a protest that contributes to anything. As pointed out, it actually hurts the movement. Even if the movement ultimately got the job done, their offenses wouldn't be excused.
 
MrKnickerbocker said:
You are, sadly, probably correct. Destruction and violence will change the narrative and result in, if anything, harsher restrictions.
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the same friend I was discussing this with said that after events like these people tend to vote conservative. The places where this is happening are currently blue cities and states.... Trump for the win?
 
Onhell said:
People handle isolation differently, and not saying it is THE excuse or a good one, just that it is yet one more straw on the cammel's back.
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Memorial Day was excuse one to get out, this is an excuse (for some) as well. In any case, all the hysteria about 20 people having a picnic does not seem to apply to 100s of people marching (I get that it is a different reason to be together) ... but I think this really semi-officially ends the lockdown stuff in the US, especially in the cities
 
The Flash said:
And? Is doesn't prove the ought.
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Proves it's what normally gets shit done. Rome wasn't toppled through idle protest, neither was the Brithish Empire. America didn't become independant immediately after the Boston Tea Party....

Interesting anecdote, but irrelevant.
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Not irrelevant, showing the massive indifference, victim blaming and disconnect.

I don't think either Malcolm X or MLK were these "can't-do-wrong" messiah-like figures, so that proves absolutely nothing. I disagree with the politics of both a fair amount. Does the good outweigh the bad? Yeah, probably. Doesn't mean there wasn't anything "bad" going on. Malcolm X actively advocated for black separatism for a long while also. MLK's point about looting is absolute nonsense.
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"no one is perfect" doesn't discredit their accomplishments or philosophy. Otherwise NO ONE should be quoted, admired, strived for, etc.

We are not supposed to have an opinion on the issue, then?
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EXACTLY! are you black or a minority living in the U.S? If no, then... exactly. It would be like me opining on the current state of Turkey and saying dumb shit like Hagia Sophia should be a Byzantine temple again and why not name Instanbul Constantinople again? I mean... it's just a name, right? I have NO clue of the current state of affairs, culture, every day life in modern Turkey so me saying anything about the totalitarian government or how it's people should or shouldn't protest it a la Arab Spring is completely out of line.

Having a utilitarian the ends are good so the means don't matter outlook on the issue is fine - the problem is you're also defending out of context acts here as if they are relevant to the cause. There's nothing about looting random businesses during a protest that contributes to anything. As pointed out, it actually hurts the movement. Even if the movement ultimately got the job done, their offenses wouldn't be excused.
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Again, a lot of the destruction of LOCAL businesses has been traced to out-of-state thugs. The initial looting of TARGET, a chain, whose CEO has already stated he doesn't care about, is whatever.
 
Onhell said:
Proves it's what normally gets shit done. Rome wasn't toppled through idle protest, neither was the Brithish Empire. America didn't become independant immediately after the Boston Tea Party.
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We know this already. Each of those things have different ways of developing and different contexts. Almost none of those things were completely benign in the way they approached things, and in the way they did things after the fact. I object to dismissing the relevance of all ethical violations (especially those unrelated or barely related to the cause) because the end result turned out good, an approach that we suggests we shouldn't care to diminish the negative impact caused along the way.

Onhell said:
"no one is perfect" doesn't discredit their accomplishments or philosophy. Otherwise NO ONE should be quoted, admired, strived for, etc.
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Well I acknowledged that the good probably outweights the bad anyway. I pointed out that there's a whole lot of things those two have said and supported that I find inane and/or unacceptable, so you quoting their takes on related issues doesn't pack a greater punch than the opinions of anyone else. You could say Farty McFartface once said that the looting was the voice of the unheard, and it'd have the same substance behind it for me, which is none at all.
 
The Flash said:
Well I acknowledged that the good probably outweights the bad anyway. I pointed out that there's a whole lot of things those two have said and supported that I find inane and/or unacceptable, so you quoting their takes on related issues doesn't pack a greater punch than the opinions of anyone else. You could say Farty McFartface once said that the looting was the voice of the unheard, and it'd have the same substance behind it for me, which is none at all.
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Except it wasn't Farty Mcfartface (nice name btw) it was MLK.

We say stupid shit on this forum ALL the time... consequences? The ocassional forum fight. Trump says stupid shit ALL the time on Twitter, the consequences? Well... we're looking at them. WHO says WHAT does matter.
 
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Forostar said:
By the way:

Institutional racist violence against black people is a problem that also occurs in the Netherlands and the rest of Europe.
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And they've dealt with it very differently than the U.S. Starting with outlawing slavery well before the U.S. Also, not just towards blacks, but against Indians (from India), Turks, Roma, and many other minorities.
 
Well, that "nothing will change" is out of the question. In fact, a lot has changed over the past few weeks already. If Trump indeed survives all this and it isn't a turning point for the better, the other possibility is, what a Newspapers here titled today:
"Absteigende Grossmacht": Descending Great Power Nation. (https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch).

I don't want that to happen (or to continue). In spite of all of America's historic or contemporary faults, I was always glad and thankful the USA were the superpower in the world, not Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, and not Europe. In fact, to think any of those would have done it better than the USA in the past 100 years is absurd imo. And as a musician, I love the USA.
I'm not telling anyone in America what to do and how to vote, but the inluence the US have on us in Europe (and the whole world) isn't in any way comparable the one of Turkey, so obviously we have an opinion. Everybody is seeing the harm the past 3 1/2 years of American incompetence have done, and it must get criticized from in- *and* outside of the US.

Also, Trump had to move to his underground bunker to hide yesterday because of the riots, I think don't think this has been discussed.
 
People who think this has much to do with Trump are forgetting about Ferguson 2014, which happened under Obama, who was a mixed-race president. The problem is far too great to be attributed to the person of the president.
 
Perun said:
This is Ferguson 2014 all over again in virtually every detail. And Ferguson happened under a black president, so I don't think it makes a difference who's in the White House.
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Effectively police power is at the state level and in all states at lower levels of government (counties/cities). The Feds (beyond some grants .. many ill advised one size fits all solutions) really have no power over the police .. with the exception of federal courts. Of any area of government, the President has virtually no police power compared to governors and mayors and their respective legislative bodies. Obviously this would be different if it were the FBI, ATF, etc.
 
Onhell said:
And they've dealt with it very differently than the U.S. Starting with outlawing slavery well before the U.S. Also, not just towards blacks, but against Indians (from India), Turks, Roma, and many other minorities.
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*ahem* *cough* *cough* *cough* *ahem* *cough* The Netherlands outlawed slavery in 1873 *ahem* *cough* *cough* the Berlin Conference that effectively divided Africa among European nations was in 1884 *cough* *ahem* *cough* racially motivated massacre in Amritsar *cough* Algerian War *cough* 2005 France riots *ahem* *cough* 2011 Tottenham riots *cough* *cough* *ahem*

Anyone have a cough sweet?
 
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