The Official LGBTQ Thread

Worst thing is, the police is receiving a massive amount of support for what they did. Turkey is a country ridden with intolerance, and it shows with the LGBT matters. I'm ashamed of how hateful this country can be.
 
Stop portraying me as someone who condones censorship. Enough is enough, bearfan. I've been posting anti-censorship sentiments on this forum for years. "Free thinking" and "anti-prejudice" are the first words I use to describe myself. You're portraying me as someone on the exact opposite of the spectrum just because you didn't agree with my viewpoint in a single debate.

I merely talked about provocation in our last debate and you're still pushing the same silly agenda on me. I support free speech. I do not support provocation and incitement that hides under free speech. That's it. Charlie Hebdo posting Muhammad cartoons is free speech and has my full support. "Anti-Islam politician" airing Muhammad cartoons to piss Muslims off is provocation and I won't ever support it.
 
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The Flash said:
I do not support provocation and incitement that hides under free speech.
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I think that, to be honest, as much as bearfan has ignored you, you have ignored him as well. His supposition is that provocation is free speech. Perhaps yours is the opposite.
 
LooseCannon said:
I think that, to be honest, as much as bearfan has ignored you, you have ignored him as well. His supposition is that provocation is free speech. Perhaps yours is the opposite.
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That's true and it's alright, it's a just a clash of views that we've had on the cartoons debate. But the sarcastic undertone of "limiting free speech is not a good thing after all" did piss me off big time here. Because we were talking about small portion (provocation) of an otherwise huge matter (free speech) and bearfan jumped to a conclusion and called me out for being a straight up opposer of free speech.
 
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The Flash said:
bearfan jumped to a conclusion and called me out for being a straight up opposer of free speech.
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I think you're jumping to the conclusion that he jumped to a conclusion. bearfan is a free speech absolutist, which makes his opposition to your personal limitations make a lot of sense.
 
The Flash said:
That's true and it's alright, it's a just a clash of views. But the sarcastic undertone of "limiting free speech is not a good thing after all" did piss me off big time here. Because we were talking about small portion (provocation) of an otherwise huge matter (free speech) and bearfan jumped to a conclusion and called me out for being a straight up opposer of free speech.
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If it came across that way, I apologize. I really was not directing this at you in particular.

But was trying to make a point that limiting "hate" speech might sound good, but this is what it can lead to depending on who is defining what is limited.


FWIW, I do not think you are an opposer of free speech, I find the edges of issues like this interesting
 
LooseCannon said:
I think you're jumping to the conclusion that he jumped to a conclusion. bearfan is a free speech absolutist, which makes his opposition to your personal limitations make a lot of sense.
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I know that by now, it's not something I don't have respect for. It's something that I agreed to disagree with. What I got from his last post was that I just didn't care about free speech at all, which is not true.

bearfan did point out that it's not the case just now, though, so it's okay. I took it a bit personal and I apologize for it. Free speech, although not in an absolutist sense, is something that I strive and fight for, so sorry for taking it too personal.
 
Let's zoom in on this:
bearfan said:
But was trying to make a point that limiting "hate" speech might sound good, but this is what it can lead to depending on who is defining what is limited.
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Can you explain that? Who limited which hate speech (by whom)? And what's the relation with what happened in Turkey? It led to what?
 
Forostar said:
Let's zoom in on this:

Can you explain that? Who limited which hate speech (by whom)? And what's the relation with what happened in Turkey?
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The justification to break up the parade was "it may offend people considering the ongoing month of Ramadan" Speech (in this case in the form of a parade) might offend someone, so it was stopped. Their version of "hate" speech/punishing people for having a contrary opinion to the norm.
 
@bearfan That's a too simplistic way of looking at it. But perhaps you are forced to it, when you have a simplistic law, or lack of law defining how far one can go.
And/or you don't know what hatespeech is.

A law can say that someone expressing his gay-being, or protesting against unjustice when it comes to these matters, is allowed.
A law can say that being offended for your sexuality is discrimination. A law can say, that is forbidden.

There's offending in different gradations. Some stuff you can do, and other goes against other laws.

You're probably going to say that this is complicated, but at least minorities can be protected.

So, I think you have turned some things upside down. This is what really happened:
A rightful protest (in line with international human rights) was stopped. Stopping it, that's an urge to please people who (spread) hate against a minority. That was the wrong thing to do. And this is what happens when one tolerates hatespeech. You take the fucking right away from people who can't be free.
 
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Nothing should be stopped just because it might offend someone, no matter how offensive it might be. It can be stopped if it's done purposefully to offend someone in the first place. That's my thinking about this matter. If an incredibly offensive joke is done to be funny, it's perfectly fine. If it's done to get a violent reaction from people and use that reaction, it's not cool. It's manipulation.

The pride walk was, well, a pride walk. It meant no harm. Who gives a shit if people are offended. If the people involved purposefully tried to piss homophobes off by going straight up to them, harrassing them and stuff, then breaking it up might have been justified. Because, to me, that's where free speech ends and it becomes provocation/hate speech.
 
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Forostar said:
@bearfan That's a too simplistic thing of looking at it. But perhaps you are forced to it, when you have a simplistic law, or lack of law defining how far one can go.
Or you don't know what hatespeech is.

A law can say that someone expressing his gay-being, or protesting against unjustice when it comes to these matters, is allowed.
A law can say that being offended for your sexuality is discrimination. A law can say, that is forbidden.

There's offending in different gradations. Some stuff you can do, and other goes against other laws.

You're probably going to say that this is complicated, but at least minorities can be protected.

So, I think you have turned some things upside down. This is what happened:
A rightful protest (in line with international humanitarian rights) was stopped. Stopping it, that's an urge to please people who hate and who spread hate against a minority. That was the wrong thing to do.
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Yeah, it was the wrong thing to do .. that is exactly what I am saying. When you give the government power to stop any speech, you give it the power to stop all of it. You might like how the law is being applied now in certain areas, but there is no promise it will stay that way.
 
As some of you might be aware, I'm bisexual, and currently in a long-distance relationship with a guy from Scotland. Whilst I'm comfortable with revealing this online, the only people in real-life that know this are my mum, and 2/3 of my sisters.

The big issue at hand is that my dad is anti-LGBT; whilst he can abide working alongside them, he hates the idea of it (as an example, he went off Judas Priest when I told him Rob Halford was gay), mostly for the "It's not natural" reasoning. I've debated him constantly, as have my sisters on the matter, but nothing seems to change his mind. I do want to tell my dad about my sexual inclination before it becomes common knowledge however, as he should know; he's my father. I've met my boyfriend, as have all of my sisters and my mum, and they all agree he's lovely and that we are right for one another.

I'm just extremely worried about how my dad will react to me being bisexual. I can't keep it from him forever, especially as me and my boyfriend intend to close the gap between us and move in with one another (probably me going up to Glasgow with him when I'm ready) soonish, and I'd rather explain it to him as opposed to him finding out and reacting negatively/violently.
 
Obviously, I can't be in the same position as you and I don't know your father, but I think that you should just spill the beans. Like, tell him you have been in a relationship for a while and things are going well and you have decided to move in with him because you're happy. Just make it sound as natural as possible. After all, he's your father and whatever he thinks of gay people, he would have to think twice before falling out with you. It's not like turning your back to a band.

But I think you should tell him tête-à-tête because if your whole family is there and everyone starts to openly defend you, your dad might feel under attack and react negatively as a defense mechanism.

Lastly, I hope everything goes well with your father and with your boyfriend. Moving in together is a big step, so I hope you will be happy together.
 
Definitely the best piece of advice is to tell him. Whether or not he takes it well, you cannot control. You can only control that he hears it from you, and gets the straight goods, nothing through the grapevine, nothing off Facebook, etc. Then he gets a garbled story, and then it's going to be worse. It sounds like your dad is the kind of guy who respects people "being a man", so that's part of it.

If he takes it poorly, then he does. Your family will likely work on bringing him around, but it's better to know. I mean, you gotta be you. Regardless of the outcome, I think everyone here just hopes its for the best for you.
 
LooseCannon said:
Definitely the best piece of advice is to tell him. Whether or not he takes it well, you cannot control. You can only control that he hears it from you, and gets the straight goods, nothing through the grapevine, nothing off Facebook, etc. Then he gets a garbled story, and then it's going to be worse. It sounds like your dad is the kind of guy who respects people "being a man", so that's part of it.

If he takes it poorly, then he does. Your family will likely work on bringing him around, but it's better to know. I mean, you gotta be you. Regardless of the outcome, I think everyone here just hopes its for the best for you.
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I have to agree with this ... you are obviously an adult and you need to live your life. Kids do things all the time their parents may or may not like .. but it is your life. All you can do is be honest with him and do what you can to make the relationship with your Dad viable going forward.
 
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