The Israel-Palestine Conflict

[Vaenyr]

edit: from Google
"What is the conflict between Hezbollah and Israel?
Elimination of the state of Israel has been a primary goal for Hezbollah from its inception. Hezbollah opposes the government and policies of the State of Israel. Hezbollah has fought many conflicts with Israel including the South Lebanon conflict, the Shebaa Farms conflict, and the 2006 Lebanon War."

Could you for once stop editing your comments after the fact? Either think about what you want to type and do it all at once or type a new post, so that nothing is lost.

I thought we were talking about Hamas and Palestine, prior to this. Hezbollah is a terrorist group, no one is denying this. They were formed because of Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982. Learn some fucking history.

And yet some of you say that I am insensitive fuck or whatever. Israel has no other option, Hezbollah's stance is clear. Some of you still rooting for Hezbollah?

Cut this shit out. No one is "rooting for Hezbollah". Stop being so deliberately obtuse, it is incredibly offensive.

Truly brainwashed inhabitants of Ivory Towers. Open your eyes, the World is still a dangerous place and you can't stay above the fight forever (to condemn from roadside) Sooner or later we all will be choosing sides and I am choosing Israel not terrorists whose primary goal is to eliminate other. Jeez.

This isn't about "condeming from the roadside", this is about stopping the slaughter of innocents. Your rhetoric is monstrous.

Simple yes or no question: Do you support genocide?

Don't dodge this.

 

[Azas]

Moving this from the Russia thread:


Yes, absolutely. "Free Palestine" is a perfectly apt slogan for an open-air prison; the largest in the world in fact.


That's objectively incorrect. The majority of pro-Palestine protesters want the hostages freed, from the get go.


Sure, any movement has people with shitty motivations. That's not a valid reason to paint all protesters with the same brush. Again, I've told you this multiple times but there are many Jewish and Israeli people who are in favor of a ceasefire and against the actions of the Israeli government. Stop with your constant strawmen and reductive bullshit and start acknowledging the simple facts.


Disinformation goes both ways, as we've seen with plenty of your posts, where you ignore actual facts and evidence.


No "errors; no "splinters will fly". They are responsible for the majority of civilian deaths. Let me repeat:

Israel has killed more innocent civilians than Hamas ever did.

Again, you are cheering on bloodlust. This has nothing to do with defense anymore. Multiple human rights groups have recognized this. Multiple Israeli groups too. Stop defending literal war crimes. Also, Netenyahu has literally supported Hamas because he needed them for his goals.


Nah, that's just your justification to defend war crimes, human rights violations and an ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign.

As I see, we will never agree on his. I think the main difference between us is this: Whereas you try to stay above the fight, I have chosen the Side. With all the consequences. You try to stay clean and pure, to watch from the distance. But that's impossible when there's a war. That's all.
And I definitely not crying that Nasrallah was killed. He was the leader of a militant organization whose primary goal is to eliminate Israel.

 

[Azas]

I do not support genocide. But war is not a clean thing, people get killed in war. How to eliminate hamas and hezbollah when they hiding between residential buildings, that's the question.

 

[Vaenyr]

As I see, we will never agree on his. I think the main difference between us is this: Whereas you try to stay above the fight, I have chosen the Side.

I too have chosen a side. The side of innocent civilians. That's the difference between us. Also, you are above the fight, just as much as anyone else here. Have you served in the military? If you weren't "above this" you'd be there fighting and risking your life. But life is much easier behind a keyboard. You are literally doing what you are accusing us of. You pretend we are just sitting here "strongly condemning", but you aren't doing anything else either. You are just here ranting in posts about how foreign soldiers should kill more people. You are just as much a keyboard warrior as any one of us, no need to kid yourself.

With all the consequences. You try to stay clean and pure, to watch from the distance. But that's impossible when there's a war. That's all.
And I definitely not crying that Nasrallah was killed. He was the leader of a militant organization whose primary goal is to eliminate Israel.

No one cares about Nasrallah, we are talking about INNOCENT CIVILIANS goddammit. For once in your life try to read the words on your screen instead of relying purely on your misguided emotions. Again: Isreal has killed far more INNOCENT people than literal TERROR GROUPS. How are you not getting this? Also Israel is not the victim, they've been the aggressor on multiple occasions throughout history. Educate yourself before advocating for genocide.

I do not support genocide.

Yet you are advocating for it in every single comment of yours. You aren't even trying to say "the IDF is justified but should be more careful", you are outright justifying literal war crimes.

But war is not a clean thing, people get killed in war. How to eliminate hamas and hezbollah when they hiding between residential buildings, that's the question.

Israel is backed by the world's strongest super power and has an incredibly capable and effective military. Stop this "hidind between residential buildings" bullshit, I already told you that's an easily disprovable lie. Again, because you ignore facts:

Look at the atrocities in the West Bank. There is no Hamas nor Hezbollah there. Every single Palestinian there is an innocent civilian yet they are harassed, attack and even killed as well. What is the justification there? Answer this.

 

[Azas]

And one more, the most important point regarding my stance. Remember that I am living near russia. And when I see that Israel is effectively eliminating it's enemies, I am rooting for Israel and I wish with all my heart that Ukraine would be able to do so. So do not shush me about Ivory Towers and safe watching from the distance. This is legitimate observation from my side. You live in a very safe region and have no idea what it is to know that the West may abandon you in any moment. Because so far the West acts very restrained on russia. The West is perfectly ok with thousands of ukrainians who die on the front and yet you cry for Palestine which authority members committed October 7th. I am perfectly clear here. I HAVE CHOSEN MY SIDES, I DO NOT OPERATE WITH ABSTRACT TERMS OF PEACE AND FREEDOM, BECAUSE IN REALITY THINGS ARE MUCH WORSE AND THERE'S DIRT EVERYWHERE.

 

[Vaenyr]

And one more, the most important point regarding my stance. Remember that I am living near russia. And when I see that Israel is effectively eliminating it's enemies, I am rooting for Israel and I wish with all my heart that Ukraine would be able to do so. So do not shush me about Ivory Towers and safe watching from the distance. This is legitimate observation from my side.

Cut that "woe is me" bullshit. You aren't the only one living in a dangerous location. You are a keyboard warrior ranting on a forum, just like everyone else as well. Don't pretend for a second that you are any more justified than any one else. Glass houses and all that; if you don't want to be judged, stop being hostile to forum members all the time.

Also, it is not too far fetched to compare Israel with Russia, but in this instance Israel is the aggressor invading a sovereign country. Which has happened numerous times. Again, educate yourself, you don't know basic history.

You live in a very safe region and have no idea what it is to know that the West may abandon you in any moment. Because so far the West acts very restrained on russia. The West is perfectly ok with thousands of ukrainians who die on the front

Bullshit, stop with your lies. The West is actively supporting Ukraine and sending weapons. Here, you once again, conveniently forget that Russia has nuclear weapons. Your shortsighted rage is having you advocate for World War III and you are too blinded to even recognize that.

and yet you cry for Palestine which authority members committed October 7th.

Unlike you I don't want innocents to die. Just say you don't care about Palestinians and that you don't think they deserve respect, dignity and human rights. You're almost at that point any way, might as well type it out so that it is clear once and for all.

I am perfectly clear here. I HAVE CHOSEN MY SIDES, I DO NOT OPERATE WITH ABSTRACT TERMS OF PEACE AND FREEDOM, BECAUSE IN REALITY THINGS ARE MUCH WORSE AND THERE'S DIRT EVERYWHERE.

Nah, you're a coward who keeps attacking us and pretends to be something better, while at the end of the day you're here advocating for war crimes and genocide, because you can't do anything else about any of these situations.

You really need to check your moral compass, because it is severely busted.

 

[Azas]

I said what I said. I will not change my stance. It is very moral and easy to stand with innocent civilians but in harsh reality it will not solve Israel's problems. If they will not act, hamas and hezbollah will be intact and sooner or later will commit new crimes. And then there will be new war and a new call to return to status quo and ceasefire. Cancer (hamas) must be removed completely and then with the involvement of USA there must some new status of Palestine achieved.

 

[Vaenyr]

I said what I said. I will not change my stance. It is very moral and easy to stand with innocent civilians but in harsh reality it will not solve Israel's problems.

Nonsense. A ceasefire could easily solve the "problems". Again, Israel is not innocent and has been the aggressor too over the years. It's basic history.

If they will not act, hamas and hezbollah will be intact and sooner or later will commit new crimes.

Hezbollar explicitly exists because of Israel's actions. Hamas was supported and funded by Netenyahu. Israel is committing crimes as well. Interesting how you continuously ignore the reality of the West Bank, but that would contradict all of your points and stances.

And then there will be new war and a new call to return to status quo and ceasefire. Cancer (hamas) must be removed completely and then with the involvement of USA there must some new status of Palestine achieved.

Again, pure bloodlust.

 

[Diesel 11]

I'll repeat, Israel is no Saint, but they are proactive and act, they try to protect their people

This has got to be the lie to end all lies. The hostages could've been freed back in January if Netanyahu agreed to 1) end the war, 2) remove Israeli forces from Gaza, and 3) release their own Palestinian prisoners. The families of the hostages have even come out and said that they are furious that the deal wasn't excepted, as this continues to put their family members in grave danger, not just from Hamas, but from Israel themselves bombing the shit out of Gaza. How is this protecting their people?

And don't you forget that Netanyahu was actively funding Hamas before October 7th for his own political purposes. He is largely the reason that the terrorist attack was allowed to happen in the first place.

And furthermore, you still haven't addressed the West Bank. Gaza and the West Bank are two different things, and Hamas is only in Gaza. The West Bank has been illegally occupied by Israel since 1967. During this current conflict, Israel has raided the West Bank multiple times, killing innocent civilians - even shooting children - and for what? Gaza is not in the West Bank! What kind of fucking protection of their people is that?

I'll tell you what it is. They want to annex the West Bank for their own purposes. Say, what country does that remind me of...?

I've said it before and I'll say it again - Azas, you are no better than Putin.

 

[Azas]

My stance is clear. I am with Israel. For better or for worse. Terrorists must bear consequences and in war, sadly, civilian deaths are unavoidable. I agree about Netanyahu, he is not a good man. But Israel is surrounded by hostile enemies so they have not many options to choose from. All the world leaders so far they just talk talk talk. Where are UN blue helmets and so on? Maybe Israel does not agree to ceasefire because it only will froze conflict and will not be solved at it's very core?
And @Vaenyr, you nitpicked every sentence of my every post. Called all bullshit, etc. I explained that:

And one more, the most important point regarding my stance. Remember that I am living near russia. And when I see that Israel is effectively eliminating it's enemies, I am rooting for Israel and I wish with all my heart that Ukraine would be able to do so. So do not shush me about Ivory Towers and safe watching from the distance. This is legitimate observation from my side. You live in a very safe region and have no idea what it is to know that the West may abandon you in any moment. Because so far the West acts very restrained on russia. The West is perfectly ok with thousands of ukrainians who die on the front and yet you cry for Palestine which authority members committed October 7th. I am perfectly clear here. I HAVE CHOSEN MY SIDES, I DO NOT OPERATE WITH ABSTRACT TERMS OF PEACE AND FREEDOM, BECAUSE IN REALITY THINGS ARE MUCH WORSE AND THERE'S DIRT EVERYWHERE.

And you said:

Cut that "woe is me" bullshit. You aren't the only one living in a dangerous location. You are a keyboard warrior ranting on a forum, just like everyone else as well. Don't pretend for a second that you are any more justified than any one else. Glass houses and all that; if you don't want to be judged, stop being hostile to forum members all the time.

You called me pompous, you completely disregarded these my thoughts and concerns as irrelevant, but that's real for me. I am not other people, I live where I live and I feel what I feel. So alone for that, in my eyes, You are a textbook man from Ivory Tower. All You do, you shout that I am stupid little peasant and what do I know. My thoughts and feelings do not matter.
Yes, i am keyboard warrior like us all here and I am perfectly clear with my stance. I do what i can. I have donated money numerous times to our Lithuanian fund Blue Yellow which is led by Jonas Ohman.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - Azas, you are no better than Putin.

 

[Diesel 11]

For better or for worse. Terrorists must bear consequences and in war, sadly, civilian deaths are unavoidable. I agree about Netanyahu, he is not a good man. But Israel is surrounded by hostile enemies so they have not many options to choose from

This entire statement could describe Hamas.

 

[Vaenyr]

My stance is clear. I am with Israel. For better or for worse. Terrorists must bear consequences and in war, sadly, civilian deaths are unavoidable.

Not to that degree. Israel deliberately targets and attacks civilians. Quit your lying.

I agree about Netanyahu, he is not a good man. But Israel is surrounded by hostile enemies so they have not many options to choose from.

Enemies they themselves either literally created (Hezbollah) or literally funded and supported (Hamas).

All the world leaders so far they just talk talk talk. Where are UN blue helmets and so on? Maybe Israel does not agree to ceasefire because it only will froze conflict and will not be solved at it's very core?

What's with these myths and lies? "Talk talk talk"? Israel is actively funded by the US. Without the US's funding this all would be immediately over.

And @Vaenyr, you nitpicked every sentence of my every post.

Yes, because you put a ton of outright lies in your comments that need to be addressed. Gish gallopping won't save you from fact checking

Called all bullshit, etc. I explained that:

And you said:

You called me pompous, you completely disregarded these my thoughts and concerns as irrelevant, but that's real for me. I am not other people, I live where I live and I feel what I feel.

Yes, you have already established previously in one of those threads that you do not care about facts and that your own subjective feelings are more important, even when the actual facts contradict them. That's nothing new. I'm not calling you pompous, I want you to stop hiding behind bullshit excuses and to stand by your beliefs. I already told you that you aren't the only one living in dangerous locations. Hell, there are plenty of people living close to Russia who don't support Israel's war crimes and ethnic cleansing campaign. So, what you feel is irrelevant to the grand scheme of things, because facts don't care about your feelings.

So alone for that, in my eyes, You are a textbook man from Ivory Tower. All You do, you shout that I am stupid little peasant and what do I know. My thoughts and feelings do not matter.

Once again, projection. You are the one who spends their time ranting and shouting on a forum, not even having discussions with people but simply sharing links to tweets and attacking other users for the West not wanting to start World War III. Again, you are no better than any other user here, no matter how much you pretend. You're not at the front lines in Ukraine risking your life. You are not in Gaza fighting terrorists. You are sitting in your home posting on a forum.

Yes, i am keyboard warrior like us all here and I am perfectly clear with my stance. I do what i can. I have donated money numerous times to our Lithuanian fund Blue Yellow which is led by Jonas Ohman.

Which means you're just as much sitting in an Ivory Tower as the rest of us.

Also, you're dodging this time and time again and at this point it's getting ridiculous:

Explain the atrocities happening in the West Bank.

 

[JudasMyGuide]

I've said it before and I'll say it again - Azas, you are no better than Putin.

And how about you? Are you better than Putin?

 

[Perun]

I'm putting an end to this. Now that we've literally just descended to calling each other "Putin", I'm closing this thread for 24 hours until tempers have cooled off.

This thread has produced nothing of value, it's just bringing out the worst in people and now you're all just engaged in a moralistic dick-measuring contest. Sleep on what you're all doing here, and I mean it, all, and maybe we can have a useful discussion here again some other time.

 

[Night Prowler]

Hi Maidenfans,

We want to take a moment to update you on our moderation policies regarding political discussions. Our primary goal is to foster a respectful and constructive environment for everyone.

To help achieve this, engaging in any of the following behaviors in all politics-related threads will result in a ban from such threads:

• Making personal attacks, such as comparing members to dictators.
• Using aggressive language, like yelling at others for being "too soft".
• Disrespecting differing opinions by belittling others.
• Spreading unfounded conspiracy theories.

Further Actions:

• If you continue to engage in misconduct after a ban from political threads, you risk being banned from the entire forum.

The following users are warned for the aforementioned behavior.

• @Azas, previously warned for histrionics, continues to derail conversations with negative comments and all-caps rants. This is absolutely a final warning for this user for political threads.
• @JudasMyGuide has been warned for reductive Nazi arguments, use of the k-slur, and aggressive comparisons to Putin.
• @Vaenyr has been warned for engaging in emotional conflicts and escalating tensions.
• @Diesel 11 has been warned for comparing Azas to Putin, further raising the emotional intensity.

We appreciate your cooperation as we strive to make this a welcoming and positive space for everyone. Let’s work together to keep our community respectful and enjoyable!

Thank you for your understanding.

Sincerely,
The Mod Squad

 

[JudasMyGuide]

Fuck's sake. Okay, so let me get this straight:

- Azas, who pisses me off, make no mistake, has the final warning, because he's the one of the few members who's actively against the position the mods obviously want to take (and got compared to Putin, for his trouble)

- I, despite my attempts to be as constructive as possible, got a warning for comparing to previous conflicts + comparing of a conflict that has resulted in mobs in the street yelling "gas the Jews", broken windows and swastikas painted on the doors of Jewish families to boot ("reductive Nazi arguments" - I suppose every Nazi argument is reductive in the eyes of some), for ironical use of a slur in a situation where I'm personally invested in a racially-motivated conflict as a purported member of that group ("use of the k-slur") and for yes, being aghast that someone is literally able to compare other members to dictators and war criminals for holding an opposing opinion, trying to turn it against the said member in hope he'll realise how fucked up that is ("aggressive comparisons to Putin")

Really, are you using AI to mod this? (especially for the last thing, I don't remember reading something so context-deaf here, again for the slower ones in the back, I-was-not-really-comparing-Diesel-to-Putin).

And yes, the two most "dissenting" members get the more severe and the more specific warnings.

You don't need to show me the door anymore, I'm out. I understand your wish to have the political discussion under control and it was getting tiresome, but this is... I don't know if exactly echo chamber, but definitely... offensive to me. Definitely not a place of a welcoming and positive space for anyone who's dissenting from the "official policy" (which seems to be "hating on Israel"), even for someone who's trying to not generally take a side in a given conflict.

And I know I might be over-reacting a bit, maybe I shouldn't be leaving, but maybe that's just the Italian-Jewish blood in me, you know.

Goodbye, especially to the members of the mod squad I care about.

Sincerely,

Martin

 

[Azas]

 

[Vaenyr]

Fuck's sake. Okay, so let me get this straight:

- Azas, who pisses me off, make no mistake, has the final warning, because he's the one of the few members who's actively against the position the mods obviously want to take (and got compared to Putin, for his trouble)

- I, despite my attempts to be as constructive as possible, got a warning for comparing to previous conflicts + comparing of a conflict that has resulted in mobs in the street yelling "gas the Jews", broken windows and swastikas painted on the doors of Jewish families to boot ("reductive Nazi arguments" - I suppose every Nazi argument is reductive in the eyes of some), for ironical use of a slur in a situation where I'm personally invested in a racially-motivated conflict as a purported member of that group ("use of the k-slur") and for yes, being aghast that someone is literally able to compare other members to dictators and war criminals for holding an opposing opinion, trying to turn it against the said member in hope he'll realise how fucked up that is ("aggressive comparisons to Putin")

Really, are you using AI to mod this? (especially for the last thing, I don't remember reading something so context-deaf here, again for the slower ones in the back, I-was-not-really-comparing-Diesel-to-Putin).

And yes, the two most "dissenting" members get the more severe and the more specific warnings.

You don't need to show me the door anymore, I'm out. I understand your wish to have the political discussion under control and it was getting tiresome, but this is... I don't know if exactly echo chamber, but definitely... offensive to me. Definitely not a place of a welcoming and positive space for anyone who's dissenting from the "official policy" (which seems to be "hating on Israel"), even for someone who's trying to not generally take a side in a given conflict.

And I know I might be over-reacting a bit, maybe I shouldn't be leaving, but maybe that's just the Italian-Jewish blood in me, you know.

Goodbye, especially to the members of the mod squad I care about.

Sincerely,

Martin

I hope you reconsider and will be back. A politics thread isn't worth torching and burning bridges.

Diesel and I got warnings as well and those were totally fair in my opinion. I think the mod team handled this as well as they could.

The warnings Azas and I got are clearly not because of our opinions and positions on the matter, but on the way we behaved in these threads. I was antagonizing and escalating tensions; I can recognize as much. Azas has, at least in the Russia thread, painted with a rather broad brush quite a few times, lumping all the West together and indirectly (sometimes directly) conflating the members who were discussing there with the "impotent West". I get being frustrated about issues one cares about, but constantly attacking others and continuously leading to thread derails, especially with a history of doing so, deserves a warning as well in my opinion.

At the end of the day, four people got warnings, two "per side" if you want to call it that. Azas and I were the main drivers of the previous argument, so I get that you and Diesel could see it as unfair that you two got the same treatment Azas and I got. The mods had to do something though.

Again, I hope you reconsider.

 

[Perun]

And I know I might be over-reacting a bit, maybe I shouldn't be leaving,

Scratch "a bit" and this part is correct.

 

[Diesel 11]

Diesel and I got warnings as well and those were totally fair in my opinion. I think the mod team handled this as well as they could.

Yeah, I agree that it's fair. I wasn't intentionally trying to heighten tensions, but in trying to make a point that I thought was important I did cross the line here. Everyone knows my stance and Azas certainly frustrates me, but at the end of the day it's not like we have much power to make changes beyond making our votes matter. So adding that extra dig was certainly a bridge too far and honestly I regretted sending it almost as soon as I did. But oh well, past's in the past.

I certainly don't see any censorship from the mod's side, they let us say what we really thought for a while and now we need to tone it down. Certainly a lot of leniency here. I think in general I appreciate the more laid-back approach they have to running the forum. MaidenFans operates in a lot of ways like one big chatbox, no one to grill you for double posting or posting too much, but engaging with us like normal people lol. There are some things they take a hard stance on and some things they allow some wiggle room on (for instance, use of "k-slur"; they understood the context it was used in and just warned not to go there again, which to me is pretty fair).

Certainly understand the warning I got. Like I said, I intended to make a point but I went too far with it. Will refrain from doing that again.