____no5
Free Man
Not so fast, give it some time, gimmick alert.
The Israel-Palestine Conflict
- Thread starter ____no5
- Start date
Not so fast, give it some time, gimmick alert.
Diesel 11
As you scream into the web of silence...
Back up, bro. After two rounds of voting Hindenburg won the 1932 election with 53% of the vote, largely thanks to liberal and left-wing voters who saw a vote for him being the only way to stop Hitler. In spite of this, Hindenburg appointed Hitler chancellor in 1933, after which the latter and his party began a series of legislative changes that led to rights being stripped from the people and the Nazi state being given total control.
There are many people who were complicit in the rise of the Nazis, but the final decision to give Hitler the position he needed to become the Führer was not in the hands of the people, but in the governmental elite.
Azas
Hermit at the End of the Universe
Ok, I am wrong on this one. Similar tactics were used like in today's russia. In my eyes russians are perfectly accountable for putin. Big part of population likes his rethoric and imperial dreams. I guess, the same, for the big part, is also true for Nazi Germany, when Nazi propaganda kicked off.
Jer
'Til Tomorrow
As already mentioned, they could protest in ways that would not put their futures at risk. Choosing to cross lines that risk their future without any additional benefit to their message is stupid, not admirable.
You can’t have it both ways on the Oslo Accords. Israel and Palestine both agreed in 1993 that the other has a right to exist. If you’re going to take the PLO’s word at face value, then mustn’t you take Israel’s word the same way?
Sorry, but sanctions alone aren’t going to end an organization that’s propped up by multiple foreign powers that will continually bypass those sanctions.
And yet fully evacuating Gaza would have been the only way to completely dismantle Hamas’s infrastructure without civilian casualties, so how could they not ask to do that first? And if Egypt had agreed, there would have been immense pressure to let the Gazan refugees return afterward, and no reasonable excuse for the Israelis to decline, as long as their security needs were addressed with U.N. or Arab peacekeepers there instead of Hamas. But now we’ll never know.
I think you're really underselling Israel's desire to clear out Gaza. They ignore reasonable requests all the time. They'd close the border and never let the Palestinians back, because deep inside, Likud believes there's no evil they can do that will cause the USA to break with them.
Plus, I don't think it'd actually work. Hamas is a transitory group. Hamas fighters would leave and come back, and have lots of people to work with who are pissed off that their homes were destroyed and looted and all the other such things, even if nobody died, which, let's be clear, people would die.
You can't dismantle terrorist organizations through offensive action, unless they are based on a single individual, like the original Al Qaeda. Hamas is far more than a couple cells these days. They're partially a government, partially a military, and partially terrorists. The only way to beat them is to make them irrelevant through diplomatic action.
Plus, I don't think it'd actually work. Hamas is a transitory group. Hamas fighters would leave and come back, and have lots of people to work with who are pissed off that their homes were destroyed and looted and all the other such things, even if nobody died, which, let's be clear, people would die.
You can't dismantle terrorist organizations through offensive action, unless they are based on a single individual, like the original Al Qaeda. Hamas is far more than a couple cells these days. They're partially a government, partially a military, and partially terrorists. The only way to beat them is to make them irrelevant through diplomatic action.
Jer
'Til Tomorrow
Maybe not a break, but there would certainly be an immense distance created if Gaza had been evacuated and then Israel had refused right of return. I could totally see the U.S. brokering a U.N. or Arab peacekeeping agreement for Gaza in that situation and then leaning hard on Israel diplomatically to accept it, even if it took a year or two for them to finally cave.
When I said "completely dismantle Hamas's infrastructure", I meant their physical infrastructure in Gaza. Of course you can't eliminate all of the Hamas fighters, as it would be easy for them to blend in with the refugees and return; but if you take out all of their stockpiles of weapons and supplies, all of their command and control infrastructure, and strip them of all formal political power, then have the civilians return with an all-new peacekeeping infrastructure in place supplied by third parties, it would force Hamas to reorganize from scratch before they could pose a serious threat again. Hopefully that would be enough time for diplomatic action under the new security arrangement to make them irrelevant, as under those circumstances Hamas would still be pariahs for their actions on October 7, and Israel would still be the aggrieved victim. But now that Israel has 30K+ civilian deaths on their hands, the complexion of the entire thing is different.
This one, which I can tell you, I have seen peace signs? I have seen people calling for the return of the two-state solution. I have seen people say "I do not support Hamas". Like, there's tons of people who are saying many of these things.
There's lots who aren't, but pretending that the protests are a monolith is propaganda.
There's lots who aren't, but pretending that the protests are a monolith is propaganda.
____no5
Free Man
Since 1993 Rabin was assassinated, settlers in West Bank have almost quadrupled, Arafat was poisoned and Hamas has risen with Netanyahu's facilitating its funding "to keep the Palestinians divided". Indefinite blockade, air bombings, invasions & dehumanisation of Gaza by the day and now that. It's not Israel's word what I worry about.
Spaldy
Ancient Mariner
Many of the protesters are Jewish.
Jer
'Til Tomorrow
You dodged my question. You can't have it both ways on the Oslo Accords -- either both sides' official commitment is worth taking at face value, or neither side's is. Both sides have committed atrocities against the other since 1993.
Diesel 11
As you scream into the web of silence...
Firstly, the hostages could be released today if Israel released all Palestinian prisoners, but Netanyahu has refused this, something that has angered families of the Israeli hostages. Not to mention the fact that the IDF killed three noticeably unarmed hostages in December.
This is all just smoke and mirrors, really. Most people are against terrorism. Yeah, Israel and Palestine need to coexist as two separate states (even if we want to get into the weeds of how Israel was founded, time has moved on so much that there's no way it'll revert back to a full Palestinian state, which that would just result in another group of people being displaced). And yes, every protester must do everything in their power not to revert to antisemitism. That should be a no-brainer.
But all of this is just shielding from the bottom-line message of these protestors, which is: Stop killing so many civilians. My brain cannot fathom the devastation of the October 7 attacks; it completely ceases to function when trying to fathom the daily devastation of the Palestinian people, funded by my own government. It has to stop.
____no5
Free Man
Not dodged. I just skipped the obvious. Your statement is true. But it's hugely unfair to treat those parties like equals. One is ultra oppressed, extremely poor, without a state fighting for survival one is powerful, rich and influential state unconditionally backed by superpower fighting for expansion & dominance.
It's almost like if you were accusing a victim of a rape physically much weaker than the rapist that he/she too punched the other in the face. My expectations of Israel are far higher than against Palestine.
I mean right now Israel intentionally starves 2 million people to death, come on.
For me, the difference is that Israel has the ability to create conditions where Hamas is no longer considered necessary by enough Palestinian people to survive. Hamas is not a good or happy organization, but it is created and strengthened through reactivity to Israeli excesses. Israel's allowed constant violations of the 1993 treaty via settlement and bombings and starvings and all sorts of things. Hamas provokes these events because they know Israel can't help themselves in overreacting.
Twenty years from now, unless Israel actually evicts the Palestinians and destroys them as a people (there's a g word for that), Hamas will be stronger than ever, and the next 10/7 will be even worse as a result. Because that's how the cycle goes.
If Israel wants peace, which I think it's pretty clear they do not, then they need to act that way. I guess as a democracy, they have a choice. Hamas doesn't, because although it was duly elected (ish), it's also a functioning dictatorship in many ways. Hamas cannot exist inside a working two-state solution, but by definition, Israel can. So whenever Israel is not actively working towards that solution, they are contributing to the overall unrest and strengthening Hamas's position that the only path to freedom for the Palestinian people is the elimination of the Israeli state.
Twenty years from now, unless Israel actually evicts the Palestinians and destroys them as a people (there's a g word for that), Hamas will be stronger than ever, and the next 10/7 will be even worse as a result. Because that's how the cycle goes.
If Israel wants peace, which I think it's pretty clear they do not, then they need to act that way. I guess as a democracy, they have a choice. Hamas doesn't, because although it was duly elected (ish), it's also a functioning dictatorship in many ways. Hamas cannot exist inside a working two-state solution, but by definition, Israel can. So whenever Israel is not actively working towards that solution, they are contributing to the overall unrest and strengthening Hamas's position that the only path to freedom for the Palestinian people is the elimination of the Israeli state.
____no5
Free Man
May 14, 2024
Biden Administration Advances $1 Billion Arms Sale to Israel
Biden Administration Advances $1 Billion Arms Sale to Israel
The notification of the deal to Congress even as the president holds up the delivery of other weapons shows the fine line the administration is trying to walk with its longtime ally.
Told you
____no5
Free Man
International Criminal Court (ICC) Prosecutor Requests Warrants for Netanyahu and Hamas Leaders.
www.nytimes.com
International Criminal Court Prosecutor Requests Warrants for Netanyahu and Hamas Leaders
While the request must be approved by the court’s judges, the announcement is a harsh rebuke of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel and his war strategy in Gaza.
Jer
'Til Tomorrow
They should have handled these separately, with the Hamas warrants issued first (and long ago), and then following up with the Israeli warrants later. That would have sidestepped the charges of false equivalence and antisemitism, though I’m sure people would make those charges anyway.
Israel’s response should have been a simple expression of disagreement along with one comment Netanyahu actually made, which was "The State of Israel is not a party to the Court and does not recognize its authority." The U.S. could have said something similar and been done with it. But all this fake outrage, charges of antisemitism, and threats of retaliation against ICC members is pure clown show.
If you don’t see anything wrong with what you did, then say so and accept the minimal consequence of no longer traveling to countries with ICC extradition agreements. If you disagree with the contents of the indictment, then refute them point by point and consider challenging it through legal counsel at the ICC while still reserving the right to not accept their authority. But getting the vapors and trying to use cancellation tactics against the ICC is just pathetic.
Spaldy
Ancient Mariner
Ireland, Norway and Spain to recognise Palestinian state.
www.theguardian.com
Israel-Gaza war live: Israel recalls ambassadors as Norway, Ireland and Spain say they will recognise Palestinian state
Norwegian PM Jonas Gahr Støre said ‘there cannot be peace in the Middle East if there is no recognition’
www.theguardian.com
Azas
Hermit at the End of the Universe
So... Next logical step for Ireland, Norway and Spain is to open Palestine Embassies in their capitals. And those Embassies will be run by hamas, because now there's no other government. Three European countries want to deal with hamas. With terrorists and rapists and murderers. Three Europe's governments have send signal that by beheading and burning innocent civilians you may achieve your goals! Idiots!
the timing of this action is god awful. Leftists* siding with terrorists.
( I despise Netanyahu. But I stand with Israel which wages it's war for survival. hamas is Irans tool. Europe wants to have a la iran/taliban country next to Israel?)
* I have no slightest idea who run respective countries. Their action speak volumes to me.
the timing of this action is god awful. Leftists* siding with terrorists.
( I despise Netanyahu. But I stand with Israel which wages it's war for survival. hamas is Irans tool. Europe wants to have a la iran/taliban country next to Israel?)
* I have no slightest idea who run respective countries. Their action speak volumes to me.