The Israel-Palestine conflict

Bearfan, what motivates you to (often) not accept reports by organizations that try to monitor things that go wrong in the world, in order to give attention to people who suffer?

Is this American patriotism? After all, the UN did write reports on undeniable American war crimes.

Or is it just the UN? So, how else do want to show findings to the world? Use an organization with another name? What's the difference?

Or is it the way this research was done? Use other methods? Remember:
Kirsten Sandberg, a Norwegian expert who chairs the U.N. Committee on the Rights of the Child, said the report was based on facts, not on the political opinions of its members.

"We look at what violations of children's rights are going on within Israeli jurisdiction," she told Reuters.
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So how else should it be done?

Or is there a deeper reason? We are happy that attention was given to these problems, or not?
 
And if so, what motivates one to try and deny something? What is the (automatic) trigger that leads to such thoughts?
 
I am not saying the report is wrong, I am saying that I would want to see it verified by other sources. That committee exists to find such things and gets funding based on it finding problems in the area of their expertise and their report seems to be narrow in scope.

It is like if you are sick and go see 5 different specialist, each doctor will be inclined to find an issue within their specialty versus looking at the entire body.

Israel countered with this .. I admit I have not read the entire report ... but the last line is interesting.

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The report prompted a furious response from Israel, countering that the findings are “not based on any direct investigation on the ground, only on documents gathered from secondary sources.”

Yigal Palmor, spokesman for the Israeli Foreign Ministry, described the report’s allegations that Israel did not comply with requests for information as a “bold, scandalous lie”. Its allegations that Palestinian children are being used as informers and human shields, he added, are also deliberately misleading.

“The [committee] were fully informed that instructions have indeed been issued and that the use of children as human shields is totally forbidden. Yet the authors pretend there never was any such communication by Israel,” Mr Palmor said.
The report, which consulted closely with Israel’s foreign ministry, also praised the country’s efforts to improve its child rights record.
 
Naturally, the Israeli government will be in denial, and a "display" of fury is just part of that act. They always respond like that, but it won't make an end to the research into their doings.

Are we going to trust the word of a (spokesmen of a) government that has been known for committing disproportionate crimes against humanity more than an organization trying to put a finger on a painful spot? No way.
 
I think calling out the report for this

"not based on any direct investigation on the ground, only on documents gathered from secondary sources.”

is a valid question to bring up no matter who brings it up ... is that true? If so, it would bring into question the validity of their findings ...Don't you think the Palestinians would try to show Israel in the worst possible light?
 
This bit is indeed interesting:
"Its allegations that Palestinian children are being used as informers and human shields, he added, are also deliberately misleading."
Misleading? Strange choice of words. Not untrue I note.

Bearfan: why would the UN be making this shit up? Seriously, Israel (in its own words) is fighting a war here. These things are, in all likelihood, happening. Do the Israel authorities forbid/prohibit this? I'm sure they do, as they say. Does it happen (on the ground) anyway? The UN say yes.

"“The [committee] were fully informed that instructions have indeed been issued and that the use of children as human shields is totally forbidden. Yet the authors pretend there never was any such communication by Israel,” Mr Palmor said."

No, they just said it happens anyway, regardless of "any communication", or whether it's officially "forbidden". They also state that the punishment/sanction of soldiers who are found to be doing this is too lenient, or non-existent.

The reaction to the report, the histrionics, the rhetoric & language, are a nonsense. Just get on with addressing these issues.
 
I am sure there are bad things both sides are doing in this conflict, which started the second the UN declared an Israeli state ... I question the methodology of the UN report and therefore at least some of it's findings as well as the conclusion that other articles are drawing from the report that Israel is the "bad guy" in this and the Palestinians are the "good guys"
 
This report isn't about the Israel-Palestinian conflict in general. This is a report by the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child. Their remit is intended to be narrow in focus. What's this "other article" bad-guy-good-guy nonsense? We're talking about children here.
 
This report isn't about the Israel-Palestinian conflict in general
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Right, I am saying if you read the some editorials, people are making it that

It is narrow in focus, but I still question the methodology which makes me question their findings. I have no doubt that some innocent people are being hurt in this conflict, but it takes two to tango. The Palestinians have shown in the past they are willing to put women and children in places where they know violence is likely to occur to garner sympathy for their cause ...

So, to sum up my position on this as clearly as possible
1) I think the report is flawed
2) I am sure some innocents have been hurt, both Palestinians and Israelis and probably children on both sides
3) Even if the reports is somewhat accurate, from what I have seen it does not address the aspect of the Palestinians putting kids in this position to begin with
4) Even though the report does not seem to address it (which is fair), others will use this as anti-Israel propaganda and if it turns out that the report has mistakes in it ... any anti-Israeli violence/violence in general that occurs from the it is square on the UN.
5) As a general statement, I would not trust any governmental/quasi governmental reports at face value without seriously looking into their methodology or possible motivations/bias in the report.

Foro
disproportionate crimes against humanity
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The disproportionate argument never hits with me, but I want to be clear are you saying that if some Palestinian attack on Israel happens, Israel can only respond in kind. I see others make that argument ... and I am not sure if you are or not .... but it strikes me as odd, if someone comes at me with a knife, because they only have a knife, and I have a knife and gun ... I can only get in a knife fight with them instead of shooting them and ensuring I am not harmed?


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I need to read the whole report, but from the summaries, I am not seeing that they investigated that possibility. However, after a long night at a concert last night and a bit of a hangover this morning ... I am not seeing me reading the report today :)
 
bearfan said:
Foro
The disproportionate argument never hits with me, but I want to be clear are you saying that if some Palestinian attack on Israel happens, Israel can only respond in kind. I see others make that argument ... and I am not sure if you are or not .... but it strikes me as odd, if someone comes at me with a knife, because they only have a knife, and I have a knife and gun ... I can only get in a knife fight with them instead of shooting them and ensuring I am not harmed?
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Are you aware of the number of victims on both sides? They are not 1:1 you know. Earlier in this thread or somewhere else I have posted some stats. I could look them up if you like. It's not just the number of casualties. It's the low treatment that Palestinians get. I am sure you read that in this article but there are numerous of other sources.
 
I feel sorry for the Palestinian people, they are in a bad position, in part of their own making, in part because of Israel, in part because of the UN that created Israel where they did, in part because of their so called Allies (like Syria, Jordan, and Iran)

As for casualty numbers, I think that is a product of Israel having a well trained army and better weapons moreso than policy. If the PLO had tanks and better rockets, they would not hesitate for a second to use them against civilians moreso than they do now ...
 
Foro ... I wanted to add that I really do respect your opinion and passion for your posts here and you are one of my favorite posters here ... I want to make sure that is clear .. I know sometimes my posts can seem harsh. I think we come from generally different world views and I appreciate the chance to hear other views (not just yours, but others) .. I think it is good for people to have their views challenged in a respectful manner and that is my intent here .. to challenge yours and have mine challenged as well.
 
Same to you! It is good to see different opinions here and I hope you don't mind why I and Cried asked why you (sometimes) mistrust UN reports. By the way, I also have not read the whole report.
bearfan said:
As for casualty numbers, I think that is a product of Israel having a well trained army and better weapons moreso than policy. If the PLO had tanks and better rockets, they would not hesitate for a second to use them against civilians moreso than they do now ...
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Who knows. Thing is, this is not the case. The case is that lots of Palestinians are "locked in", living in bad conditions. Israel keeps on building on their land (Wingman's post on the previous page shows how bad this is).

I can understand that people get desperate. It's so logical that resistance develops. That said, I condemn the recent executions of Israeli done by Hamas.

Nonetheless, in the last decades, I think Israel acts (restricting Palestinians in all kinds of ways) and responds (with violence) heavier than necessary.
 
That is fair, I do not think Israel is purely innocent in all of this by any stretch. But in general I have sympathy for them given their history and the continued statements by their neighbors.

I do think countries like Jordan and Syria (before their recent problems) could have been incredibly helpful in this by offering some compromise where they would let the Palestinians settle in their land in exchange for Israel giving something up ... Iran could have been helpful here too (not with land, but financially) ... but they would rather use the Palestinians problems/plight as another hammer to use against Israel.

I'll read the report (I admit I would not have if we had not had this discussion) ... I mainly want to see what evidence they have and if this is some isolated incident or a policy (official or otherwise) ... if the latter is the case, I would join you in condemning Israel for that ... if it is the former and Israel seems to be taking steps to stop it, I would not be so harsh.

As for your earlier question about the UN, I think it can serve a role as a place for nations to meet, collect data, and help in some areas .. but I think they want to see themselves as a world government .... which they are not.

Even though this report is narrow in focus, they surely understand it (or anything else from this region) will be used in propaganda and in arguments against or for Israel/Palestinians ... so they do need to be incredibly careful that they are only reporting on what they can substantiate as close to 100% as humanly possible.
 
bearfan said:
But in general I have sympathy for them given their history.
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They lost mine long ago. They (especially the right wingers and orthodox jews) indoctrinate that history and feed hate into their people. Meanwhile "forgetting" that they are oppressors themselves now.
 
... looks like Israel is about to enter the Gaza strip again after some pretty massive rocket attacks against them
 
Again, and again, and again. This will never end.
 
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