Short-answer questions

[permanenteddie]

Well I disagree with that. At least with Maiden nowadays. In the 80s that was the case.

Yes, Steve is still in charge of the music portion, but most people don't realise that Bruce is in charge in most other areas. Products, image etc is mostly Bruce now. And it seems that 'Arry is happy with that.

Regarding H, he might not be that vocal about things, but I believe he is the key part in the studio, even though he isn't in charge. His ear is very much missed in the 90s Maiden albums and for example Tyranny Of Souls.

So, in short, Maiden are more of a collective than Metallica since 99 IMO. In the 80s, it was a different story.

Well Metallica in the - very - early days, when Mustaine was in the band, not sure James had a lot to say (and for what I read, he was quite shy and not too confident). During the days Burton was in the band, both Lars and James seemed to have a lot of respect for him, specially since he had a lot of skills neither James or Lars had (talking here mainly about how to write and arrange music and its classical influences that are nowhere to be found on the rest of Metallica's discography).

But once Burton passed away, clearly it was just James writing the music and Lars making the arrangements, the other two making some contributions here and there but very scarcely. So yeah definitely since 1988 we can say Metallica is just James & Lars with Kirk coming in just to record his solos (where Maiden guitarists all play rhythm and lead guitar) and Jason and now Robert coming in to play their bass parts (some of them if not most, they just have to follow what James told them to play...just watch the one year and a half videos for some examples).

And one thing people should not forget, you are in Metallica, you aren't that free to write what you want to write but you are not allowed either to do your solo stuff (main reason Jason left...even if after 30 years Kirk finally had the right to do something outside Metallica!!!).

So Maiden back in the early days (lets say until Bruce came in), it was mainly Steve, on that I agree, but Bruce being Bruce from day one, not sure he didn't voice things he wasn't ok with. Adrian might have been always the shy one but still some of his stuff has always been accepted as MAiden songs even some he thought it didn't (talking about Wasted Years here). And this was back in the middle-late 80's. Since Bruce and H came back, for sure its all way more democratic and specially Bruce seems to have a lot of room to express himself and be part of a lot of decisions.

So no comparison here, imo, between these two bands, one is, since 1988, James and Lars thing, while the other started as being Steve almost only but quickly the other members came as being an important part of it specially since 1999.

 

[The_7th_one]

I think Kirk turned to be a rented guy or live in the shadows of James and Lars, but Kirk has written the amazing guitar solos trough the first 4 albums. He deserves a lot more of recognition, but at the same time he lost it since the Black Album to me.

 

[____no5]

Maiden's always had incredibly defined songwriting roles in comparison. Bruce works with Adrian on some tracks, Adrian works with Steve on others, Steve usually writes two songs using Janick's material (and in some cases like The Pilgrim, Janick writes basically the entire song, lyrics and all) while also writing at least one lengthier track entirely by himself, and also one other based on an idea Dave had. There's no collective filter that functionally writes all the tracks in their complete form. Also, the lyrics are a crapshoot. Bruce only does lyrics on a song if he's explicitly credited as a songwriter, while Metallica's lyrics are solely by James outside of St. Anger.

The above post and also the one by @permanenteddie in this page, make the case why I think Metallica is more collective as a band, now and always @matic22. Two is simply more than one, simple as that.
Now Bruce doing the beer, products or whatever, I don't mind (nor does Steve) we talk music here. Or Adrian being the uncredited ear with no decisive power in the studio. Records -wise I see Harris all the way, artwork =Harris, credits everywhere =Harris, "co"-production; not even close.

In Metallica it's mostly James but he does give credit to Lars no matter what and this is huge -whereas Harris imposed himself in the credits of Out of the Shadows, Coming Home, Pilgrim and god knows what else. And he did that after 25+ years in the band.

As @efekåseo_suomi showed here there are many contributors in the first album who are uncredited, but Mustaine has official credits even on the second album guys, so it's a whole different league altogether.
And Metallica's line up has been mostly stable, whereas Maiden has been change after change after change 19 years in the discography. Metallica always wanted to be a band with unchanged line up if you remember from Some Kind of Monster. No matter fewer contributions from Kirk, that says a lot. Now look how Dennis Stratton & Clive Burr were fired

Yet, collectivity -wise, things are way better than the 80s, but still Mark left due to Harris' interference and Kevin an industry renowened engineer is usually buried and it's due to Harris. The 13 odd minutes of Red and the Black were in the setlist but Empire of the Clouds have not been played even once.
And I'm happy that since 2015 we don't see Harris been credited everywhere but we all know what Bruce had to pass through this to happen.

 

[GhostofCain]

@____no5 Careful mate, some fans would say that it is Steve’s band and if you don’t like it, tough!

Some cunt is probably recording this.

 

[permanenteddie]

The above post and also the one by @permanenteddie in this page, make the case why I think Metallica is more collective as a band, now and always @matic22. Two is simply more than one, simple as that.
Now Bruce doing the beer, products or whatever, I don't mind (nor does Steve) we talk music here. Or Adrian being the uncredited ear with no decisive power in the studio. Records -wise I see Harris all the way, artwork =Harris, credits everywhere =Harris, "co"-production; not even close.

In Metallica it's mostly James but he does give credit to Lars no matter what and this is huge -whereas Harris imposed himself in the credits of Out of the Shadows, Coming Home, Pilgrim and god knows what else. And he did that after 25+ years in the band.

As @efekåseo_suomi showed here there are many contributors in the first album who are uncredited, but Mustaine has official credits even on the second album guys, so it's a whole different league altogether.
And Metallica's line up has been mostly stable, whereas Maiden has been change after change after change 19 years in the discography. Metallica always wanted to be a band with unchanged line up if you remember from Some Kind of Monster. No matter fewer contributions from Kirk, that says a lot. Now look how Dennis Stratton & Clive Burr were fired

Yet, collectivity -wise, things are way better than the 80s, but still Mark left due to Harris' interference and Kevin an industry renowened engineer is usually buried and it's due to Harris. The 13 odd minutes of Red and the Black were in the setlist but Empire of the Clouds have not been played even once.
And I'm happy that since 2015 we don't see Harris been credited everywhere but we all know what Bruce had to pass through this to happen.

Sorry to totally disagree here but Metallica being seen as a collective band makes me really laugh. Just a few points here: Jason said it and both James and Lars agreed (even if it took them some time to admit it) that for a very long time, Jason was never fully considered as a member, more of the guy who is there because "we have to have a bass player". In term of credits how do you know that James gives credit to Lars and its not the other way around, that Lars imposed himself from the beginning. As stated in my previous post, James, specially in the beginning was quite a shy guy where Lars was (and still is) right from the start the one that decided for a lot of things. So its perfectly "normal" that his name appears in the credits and with time going by, it stayed that way. Would we ever know the truth about how much is Lars responsible of writing/arranging a song...we'll never know but for sure, he is pretty lucky to have his name all over Metallica's songs...For me right from the start he acted more like some kind of manager for both things around the band but also into, which means songs too.
Mustaine has official credits but he had to fight for some of them at least (Leper Messiah is the perfect example) so it's no black and white situation.

And here we're talking just about writing music but how about playing it? At least in Maiden, all guitarists play everything, in the studio, where in Metallica, its 99% James playing all rhythms guitars and Kirk just the solos (how happy should he have been about St. Anger)...talk about collective here??? It changed a bit here and there but still that's the way it goes. Samo goes for lyrics...do you remember any lyric not being written by James? (well maybe in the early days, some songs written mainly by Mustaine must have had some input from him). I remember quite a lot of interviews where he clearly states that he doesnt want no one else to write them, its "his" territory...yeah collective...

Line-up changes: well let's say James and Lars are quite lucky to have someone like Kirk in the band that will accept everything without protesting...so of course, he'll always be there. Remember what happens when someone does not fully agree with James and Lars...Dave Mustaine remembers it pretty well...to quote your post: "now look how...Dave...was fired". The same happened with Jason, for years he tried to do his best to please James (and Lars) but at one point he just couldn't take it anymore...he wasn't allowed to express himself inside or outside of Metallica (and James was pretty clear about it, even "joking" about the fact that when you're in Metallica you're not allowed to do anyhting else...what a "joy")

 

[Edington]

The above post and also the one by @permanenteddie in this page, make the case why I think Metallica is more collective as a band, now and always @matic22. Two is simply more than one, simple as that.
Now Bruce doing the beer, products or whatever, I don't mind (nor does Steve) we talk music here. Or Adrian being the uncredited ear with no decisive power in the studio. Records -wise I see Harris all the way, artwork =Harris, credits everywhere =Harris, "co"-production; not even close.

In Metallica it's mostly James but he does give credit to Lars no matter what and this is huge -whereas Harris imposed himself in the credits of Out of the Shadows, Coming Home, Pilgrim and god knows what else. And he did that after 25+ years in the band.

I'm not really getting what point you're trying to make here. You're saying after 25 years Steve started "imposing himself" in the writing credits and making the band less of a collective, but it appears to me that Steve was actually being more collaborative by writing with the rest of the band instead of writing multiple songs by himself and insisting the band record them, as he had before. As others said, Steve was much more controlling of the music in the eighties, but even then he still had no issues with Bruce and Adrian bringing in their own fully-formed songs, written either together or individually and not feeling the need to add his own name to them somehow.

I'm totally speculating here, but I think that, during their absence, Steve realised how much-needed Bruce and Adrian's contributions were and that they helped ease the pressure on him having to come up with ideas by himself, so he took the opportunity to work more closely with the two of them after they returned.

Harris imposed himself in the credits of Out of the Shadows, Coming Home, Pilgrim and god knows what else.

Steve fully admits Out of the Shadows is more Bruce's song than his, and that his biggest contribution was the melody line in the verses, a small part, but still totally fair to take credit. The Pilgrim we can't really say, as while Janick may have written the lyrics as well as the music, we don't know how complete it was when he presented it to Steve. Coming Home I can't argue, 'cause I don't know who is supposed to have written what in it. Also, what "tacked on intros" are you referring to?

The 13 odd minutes of Red and the Black were in the setlist but Empire of the Clouds have not been played even once.

How is this relevant? There's a multitude of reasons why TRATB was a better/easier choice to play live than Empire, and I doubt Harris' ego was one of them. Doesn't Bruce decide on most of the setlist now anyway?

And here we're talking just about writing music but how about playing it? At least in Maiden, all guitarists play everything, in the studio, where in Metallica, its 99% James playing all rhythms guitars and Kirk just the solos (how happy should he have been about St. Anger)...talk about collective here???

Took the words right out of my mouth, and not to mention Lars' dictation of Kirk's solos. I can't see Steve ever overseeing any of Maiden's guys like that, Adrian would probably throw a fit.

 

[Jer]

I can't see Steve ever overseeing any of Maiden's guys like that

Steve regularly dictates poorly phrased lyrics and barely singable vocal melodies to Bruce and expects him to reproduce them verbatim. Which, to his credit, he usually does.

 

[____no5]

I wonder... Does the title Piece of Mind was purposely used to pun Nicko Mc Brain's arrival? There's the photo of the band preparing to eat a brain inside the twofold cover... And there's the false Revelations passage talking about brain (instead of pain):

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more Death. Neither sorrow, nor crying. Neither shall there be any more Brain; for the former things are passed away.

 

[matic22]

I wonder... Does the title Piece of Mind was purposely used to pun Nicko Mc Brain's arrival? There's the photo of the band preparing to eat a brain inside the twofold cover... And there's the false Revelations passage talking about brain (instead of pain):

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more Death. Neither sorrow, nor crying. Neither shall there be any more Brain; for the former things are passed away.

I think Peace Of Mind was the original title of Still Life and Piece Of Mind was a word play on that.

 

[____no5]

Yes I know that. But I thought that Maiden being Maiden could have intended to hit 2 birds with one stone in the puns department. The more meanings to hint the better. False Revelations passage is about Brain. They are eating brain. Album opens with Brain's solo. You see my point?

 

[matic22]

Yes I know that. But I thought that Maiden being Maiden could have intended to hit 2 birds with one stone in the puns department. The more meanings to hint the better. False Revelations passage is about Brain. They are eating brain. Album opens with Brain's solo. You see my point?

Highly unlikely IMO.

 

[Edington]

The album title was originally "Food For Thought" as Eddie was lobotomised on the cover. "Piece of Mind" and the Revelations passage were born from that.

 

[Luisma]

I wonder... Does the title Piece of Mind was purposely used to pun Nicko Mc Brain's arrival? There's the photo of the band preparing to eat a brain inside the twofold cover... And there's the false Revelations passage talking about brain (instead of pain):

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more Death. Neither sorrow, nor crying. Neither shall there be any more Brain; for the former things are passed away.

I think that's a wrong assumtion. Why would the band give so much importance to switching drummers as to give the album such a title? There's also the fact that originally the album was going to be called "Food For Thought", hence the picture inside the album which features an actual sheep's brain that the band did eat!

 

[____no5]

Yes I know the Food for Thought story, not the sheep though... So why they didn't keep the title Food for Thought and changed it? Maybe because Piece of Mind was including also a hint to McBrain?

I new re-read my quoted post and I didn't make it clear: I don't mean their first intention was a McBrain. That was a coincidence. Food for Though it was the intention, then came the brain... Then, someone could have made the connection brain -McBrain..
And since the coincidence was fitting perfectly they "included" McBrain in the pun with a change of title.

That album is full of trolling, so that one would have fit perfectly. I was hoping you could confirm that @Luisma but it's never too late. If I get a chance to meet anyone in the know, that would be Steve, Rod, Bruce or Nicko in my opinion, I would ask about this.

 

[Kalata]

I think Peace Of Mind was the original title of Still Life and Piece Of Mind was a word play on that.

I doubt it, although ''peace of mind'' is part of the lyrics of the song. Maybe the original title was Nightmares (chorus lyrics). Wasn't Peace Of Mind the first title they thought of and then changed it to Piece?

 

[chaosapiant]

… hence the picture inside the album which features an actual sheep's brain that the band did eat!

Hold up…..what?!!! Is this true? They could’ve used a movie prop and instead it’s a real sheep brain? And wtf would they eat it?

 

[MindRuler]

A sheep brain or a cheap brain?
In each case insane

Spoiler

in the membrane...insane in McBrain!

 

[Luisma]

Hold up…..what?!!! Is this true? They could’ve used a movie prop and instead it’s a real sheep brain? And wtf would they eat it?

LOL I thought you already had my book and read that part! Anyway, here's the story.

When the band was recording in Jersey, they met a guy by the name of Nicky Beek, who turns out was not only a chef but a VERY good chef.
Beek, cooked for the band in more than one occassion while the band was in the Island and they just loved his cooking. So good he was, that he got invited to tour with the band as their personal chef but Nicky turned them down because he was raising his family. As a mater of fact, while I was reviewing stuff for my book, I got to speak to his son (Beeky has passed away) who was present the day of the photo shoot and helped his father in the kitchen (in St. Ouen's Manor).

Anyway, when they were talking about the shooting (and still with the idea of 'Food For Thought' in mind) someone suggested that they do the real thing, so Nicky was brought in to cook EVERYTHING, so yes, he ordered the carrots, the beans and yes, the sheep's brain (which I originally also thought it was a prop). Now, I don't know if they ate the whole thing but I do know that everyone (including Rod) did taste it.

So there you go... Another cool and crazy story you can find in my book along with THE ONLY newspaper who had access to the band when they were writing the album...

 

[Luisma]

Yes I know the Food for Thought story, not the sheep though... So why they didn't keep the title Food for Thought and changed it? Maybe because Piece of Mind was including also a hint to McBrain?

I new re-read my quoted post and I didn't make it clear: I don't mean their first intention was a McBrain. That was a coincidence. Food for Though it was the intention, then came the brain... Then, someone could have made the connection brain -McBrain..
And since the coincidence was fitting perfectly they "included" McBrain in the pun with a change of title.

That album is full of trolling, so that one would have fit perfectly. I was hoping you could confirm that @Luisma but it's never too late. If I get a chance to meet anyone in the know, that would be Steve, Rod, Bruce or Nicko in my opinion, I would ask about this.

They weren't competely satisfied with the 'Food For Thought' title... They wanted something with a bit more of punch to it, if you get my meaning.

In all my years of research, and after literally reading thousands of interviews about the album besides performing some myself, I never ever have seen anyone connecting the McBrain thing with the brain in Piece Of Mind... Not even a joke about it.

 

[Luisma]

A sheep brain or a cheap brain?
In each case insane

Spoiler

in the membrane...insane in McBrain!

Here's a picture that didn't make it into the book. Taken at St. Ouen manor the day of the famous photo shooting inside of the album... Insane in the McBrain!