Senjutsu - 3rd September 2021

[Ruflux]

Yeah, I hate to say it but that's not exactly what you'd call a depiction of a flawed man doing what he must, that's just glorifying his legacy without much in the way of a critical eye.

"People say I 'idolize' Churchill. Not true, I hold a fair and balanced view." -B. Dickinson, 2019, probably.

 

[Deleted member 7164]

It doesn't take away my enjoyment from listening to this great track.

So then,

I have the fire, I have the force
I have the power to make my evil take its course

Is praising Satan, right?

I see where you're going, but the TNOTB "story" actually has the bad guy "uttering" those lyrics at the end.
In Darkest Hour, Churchill is the story.

For me "turn the ploughshares into swords" sounds like something you'd do in a strategy game. Like sliding a population slider between peasants and army for the next turn's production. And it's exactly what Churchill was doing for his entire life, it just wasn't a game and those people weren't pixels.

It's this Dickinson's gallant and poetic description of him that people have a problem with. And a context where he puts him as saviour of Europe/freedom at an expense of his own people. Which is certainly not true. Here's why

Churchill's policies contributed to 1943 Bengal famine – study

Study is first time weather data has been used argue wartime policies exacerbated famine

www.theguardian.com

Very wise guy indeed. Putting Turing through hormonal therapy was very wise too. Let's kill a man because he's different, while not noticing his massive contribution to the war effort. But no, old idiot staring out of the window pondering about sending 15 or 23 thousand men into certain death tommorow morning; the pros and cons of both. Very honorable and wise position indeed.

 

[MindlessPieces]

Big time man.


+1

Also:

I faced them down the only one
I stood alone and warned the day would come
But they were wrong, appeasers every one
And not for the last time we all stand alone

I watch the sun move away
As I embrace the night
And my black dog has its day
For six long yеars, you shall not pass
Barbarians at the gates
We will ovеrcome

..
You sons of Albion awake
Defend this sacred land

Pretty positive outlook.

Seems to me to be a first person perspective, like what Churchill might have been feeling at the time. Not a statement of what the members of Iron Maiden think about Churchill's character.

Good grief, if we are going down this woke path then all Maiden will be able to sing about is stardust, moonbeams, and rainbows.

 

[MindlessPieces]

Yeah, I hate to say it but that's not exactly what you'd call a depiction of a flawed man doing what he must, that's just glorifying his legacy without much in the way of a critical eye.

Was Maiden writing an academic historical record full of moral judgements and covering all perspectives of the entirety of Churchill's public life and actions or were they writing a song?

Good grief.

 

[____no5]

Seems to me to be a first person perspective, like what Churchill might have been feeling at the time. Not a statement of what the members of Iron Maiden think about Churchill's character.

Sure, and it still suggests sympathy.
You wouldn’t speak those words for someone you despise, let alone write. And here Bruce’s going public, knowing that million people will hear those words and thousands will analyse them.

 

[MindlessPieces]

Sure, and it still suggests sympathy.
You wouldn’t speak those words for someone you despise, let alone write. And here Bruce’s going public, knowing that million people will hear those words and thousands will analyse them.

Utter nonsense. But you have every right to be shocked at the lyrics and disappointed in Bruce for writing them. That's your prerogative.
I just don't happen to share your view on this.

They wrote and performed and recorded a song.
They aren't attempting to rewrite history or portray Churchill as an upstanding ethical role model (a saint) LOL.

 

[____no5]

I’m not shocked at lyrics or disappointed in Bruce, I understand he considers Churchill a great leader and I respect that. (I don’t have any particular opinion on Churchill)

I will not attempt to convince you further on why going million people public has a weight.
I guess Maiden starting their iconic Live After Death & many tours with Churchill’s speech doesn’t mean a thing either.

 

[MindlessPieces]

I’m not shocked at lyrics or disappointed in Bruce, I understand he considers Churchill a great leader and I respect that. (I don’t have any particular opinion on Churchill)

I will not attempt to convince you further on why going million people public has a weight.
I guess Maiden starting their iconic Live After Death & many tours with Churchill’s speech doesn’t mean a thing either.

Maiden have lots of songs about war, British wars etc, Churchils speech represents Britain's war effort, it's not an endorsement about how great Churchill is as a person. I've never thought Bruce or Maiden as having praise for Churchill.

I don't know how or why you jump to that conclusion.

 

[____no5]

I already explained, I don't have further arguments. Below quotes demonstrate that it's not only myself jumping to that conclusion:

"People say I 'idolize' Churchill. Not true, I hold a fair and balanced view." -B. Dickinson, 2019, probably.

I'd say Bruce was probably even drooling when writing the lyrics.

Yeah, I hate to say it but that's not exactly what you'd call a depiction of a flawed man doing what he must, that's just glorifying his legacy without much in the way of a critical eye.

 

[MindlessPieces]

it's not only myself jumping to that conclusion:

Sure, but they are all leaping to a conclusion

 

[srfc]

They aren't attempting to rewrite history or portray Churchill as an upstanding ethical role model (a saint) LOL.

I'd disagree with that when there's lines about Britain standing alone, and barbarians being at the gates. They might have been at the gates of Stalingrad but they were nowhere near the gates of London, or even the cliffs of Dover.


EDIT: For the record, I have no problem with the song, or have any issue with Maiden singing about Churchill, at the end of the day whatever the flaws of Churchill he got it right on the major thing he needed to in his life. I was just surprised at the very "dads army" style poetic liberties taken to the lyrics from an actual history graduate.

 

[GhostofCain]

I'd disagree with that when there's lines about Britain standing alone, and barbarians being at the gates. They might have been at the gates of Stalingrad but they were nowhere near the gates of London, or even the cliffs of Dover.

Not to mention the bullshit of

I faced them down
The only one
I stood alone



There is more truth in Quest for Fire than in those lyrics.

 

[____no5]

You guys are very knowledgable about Churchill. I don't know much but my impression is similar to srfc that he did well in the big picture.

 

[srfc]

Not to mention the bullshit of

I faced them down
The only one
I stood alone



There is more truth in Quest for Fire than in those lyrics.

I'll give Bruce the benefit of the doubt and say that those lyrics are referring to the pre-war period when he was a loan voice opposing appeasement, rather than it being Churchill claiming to have singlehandedly won WW2

 

[____no5]

Sounds like it. Also when Hitler offered truce during the war maybe? He stood his ground and denied.

 

[GhostofCain]

I'll give Bruce the benefit of the doubt and say that those lyrics are referring to the pre-war period when he was a loan voice opposing appeasement, rather than it being Churchill claiming to have singlehandedly won WW2

But it is a blatant lie. There were many others against appeasement across the political spectrum, but Bruce is either unaware of it or, even worse, ignoring it to portray Churchill as this heroic figure who stood alone against the appeasers.

 

[srfc]

But it is a blatant lie. There were many others against appeasement across the political spectrum, but Bruce is either unaware of it or, even worse, ignoring it to portray Churchill as this heroic figure who stood alone against the appeasers.

In character as Churchill who would certainly have had to ego to believe that he alone stood down the appeasers.

 

[____no5]

The last 3 pages would fit nicely in Darkest Hour commentary...

 

[GhostofCain]

In character as Churchill who would certainly have had to ego to believe that he alone stood down the appeasers.

Short man with big ego? Sounds familiar…

 

[Yax]

In character as Churchill who would certainly have had to ego to believe that he alone stood down the appeasers.

I faced them down
The only one, along with a bunch of others
I stood alone, the other anti-appeasement guys weren't my friends

That would have been terrible song lyrics.