Senjutsu - 3rd September 2021

[MindlessPieces]

Yeah, I hate to say it but that's not exactly what you'd call a depiction of a flawed man doing what he must, that's just glorifying his legacy without much in the way of a critical eye.

Was Maiden writing an academic historical record full of moral judgements and covering all perspectives of the entirety of Churchill's public life and actions or were they writing a song?

Good grief.

 

[____no5]

Seems to me to be a first person perspective, like what Churchill might have been feeling at the time. Not a statement of what the members of Iron Maiden think about Churchill's character.

Sure, and it still suggests sympathy.
You wouldn’t speak those words for someone you despise, let alone write. And here Bruce’s going public, knowing that million people will hear those words and thousands will analyse them.

 

[MindlessPieces]

Sure, and it still suggests sympathy.
You wouldn’t speak those words for someone you despise, let alone write. And here Bruce’s going public, knowing that million people will hear those words and thousands will analyse them.

Utter nonsense. But you have every right to be shocked at the lyrics and disappointed in Bruce for writing them. That's your prerogative.
I just don't happen to share your view on this.

They wrote and performed and recorded a song.
They aren't attempting to rewrite history or portray Churchill as an upstanding ethical role model (a saint) LOL.

 

[____no5]

I’m not shocked at lyrics or disappointed in Bruce, I understand he considers Churchill a great leader and I respect that. (I don’t have any particular opinion on Churchill)

I will not attempt to convince you further on why going million people public has a weight.
I guess Maiden starting their iconic Live After Death & many tours with Churchill’s speech doesn’t mean a thing either.

 

[MindlessPieces]

I’m not shocked at lyrics or disappointed in Bruce, I understand he considers Churchill a great leader and I respect that. (I don’t have any particular opinion on Churchill)

I will not attempt to convince you further on why going million people public has a weight.
I guess Maiden starting their iconic Live After Death & many tours with Churchill’s speech doesn’t mean a thing either.

Maiden have lots of songs about war, British wars etc, Churchils speech represents Britain's war effort, it's not an endorsement about how great Churchill is as a person. I've never thought Bruce or Maiden as having praise for Churchill.

I don't know how or why you jump to that conclusion.

 

[____no5]

I already explained, I don't have further arguments. Below quotes demonstrate that it's not only myself jumping to that conclusion:

"People say I 'idolize' Churchill. Not true, I hold a fair and balanced view." -B. Dickinson, 2019, probably.

I'd say Bruce was probably even drooling when writing the lyrics.

Yeah, I hate to say it but that's not exactly what you'd call a depiction of a flawed man doing what he must, that's just glorifying his legacy without much in the way of a critical eye.

 

[MindlessPieces]

it's not only myself jumping to that conclusion:

Sure, but they are all leaping to a conclusion

 

[srfc]

They aren't attempting to rewrite history or portray Churchill as an upstanding ethical role model (a saint) LOL.

I'd disagree with that when there's lines about Britain standing alone, and barbarians being at the gates. They might have been at the gates of Stalingrad but they were nowhere near the gates of London, or even the cliffs of Dover.


EDIT: For the record, I have no problem with the song, or have any issue with Maiden singing about Churchill, at the end of the day whatever the flaws of Churchill he got it right on the major thing he needed to in his life. I was just surprised at the very "dads army" style poetic liberties taken to the lyrics from an actual history graduate.

 

[GhostofCain]

I'd disagree with that when there's lines about Britain standing alone, and barbarians being at the gates. They might have been at the gates of Stalingrad but they were nowhere near the gates of London, or even the cliffs of Dover.

Not to mention the bullshit of

I faced them down
The only one
I stood alone



There is more truth in Quest for Fire than in those lyrics.

 

[____no5]

You guys are very knowledgable about Churchill. I don't know much but my impression is similar to srfc that he did well in the big picture.

 

[srfc]

Not to mention the bullshit of

I faced them down
The only one
I stood alone



There is more truth in Quest for Fire than in those lyrics.

I'll give Bruce the benefit of the doubt and say that those lyrics are referring to the pre-war period when he was a loan voice opposing appeasement, rather than it being Churchill claiming to have singlehandedly won WW2

 

[____no5]

Sounds like it. Also when Hitler offered truce during the war maybe? He stood his ground and denied.

 

[GhostofCain]

I'll give Bruce the benefit of the doubt and say that those lyrics are referring to the pre-war period when he was a loan voice opposing appeasement, rather than it being Churchill claiming to have singlehandedly won WW2

But it is a blatant lie. There were many others against appeasement across the political spectrum, but Bruce is either unaware of it or, even worse, ignoring it to portray Churchill as this heroic figure who stood alone against the appeasers.

 

[srfc]

But it is a blatant lie. There were many others against appeasement across the political spectrum, but Bruce is either unaware of it or, even worse, ignoring it to portray Churchill as this heroic figure who stood alone against the appeasers.

In character as Churchill who would certainly have had to ego to believe that he alone stood down the appeasers.

 

[____no5]

The last 3 pages would fit nicely in Darkest Hour commentary...

 

[GhostofCain]

In character as Churchill who would certainly have had to ego to believe that he alone stood down the appeasers.

Short man with big ego? Sounds familiar…

 

[Yax]

In character as Churchill who would certainly have had to ego to believe that he alone stood down the appeasers.

I faced them down
The only one, along with a bunch of others
I stood alone, the other anti-appeasement guys weren't my friends

That would have been terrible song lyrics.

 

[Spaldy]

Good grief, if we are going down this woke path then all Maiden will be able to sing about is stardust, moonbeams, and rainbows.

What's "woke" about it?

 

[Ruflux]

I think it's a little silly that Bruce is allowed to write an uncritical look at Churchill, but we here at Maidenfans aren't apparently allowed to dislike or criticize this approach. I've never denied him his right to write what he likes, but I will absolutely hold on to my own right to express opinions about his works. The lyrics aren't distractingly offensive to me, but combined with the vocal melody being pretty bland it does affect my overall enjoyment of the song.

 

[____no5]

I think it's a little silly that Bruce is allowed to write an uncritical look at Churchill, but we here at Maidenfans aren't apparently allowed to dislike or criticize this approach.

Of course we are. Many here are doing so.
Having said that I do not think that Bruce's approach is unchecked. It's his country his major I'm pretty confident he has read as much as I'll never do in the subject.