Senjutsu - 3rd September 2021

I think it's a little silly that Bruce is allowed to write an uncritical look at Churchill, but we here at Maidenfans aren't apparently allowed to dislike or criticize this approach. I've never denied him his right to write what he likes, but I will absolutely hold on to my own right to express opinions about his works. The lyrics aren't distractingly offensive to me, but combined with the vocal melody being pretty bland it does affect my overall enjoyment of the song.
 
Ruflux said:
I think it's a little silly that Bruce is allowed to write an uncritical look at Churchill, but we here at Maidenfans aren't apparently allowed to dislike or criticize this approach.
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Of course we are. Many here are doing so.
Having said that I do not think that Bruce's approach is unchecked. It's his country his major I'm pretty confident he has read as much as I'll never do in the subject.
 
I would agree with @srfc - Darkest Hour is clearly in character presenting the view Churchill had of the events.
It is not an unproblematic way to go about this subject in our current day and age, but strictly speaking it isn't claiming Churchill singlehandedly saved the world from the forces of evil, only that he thought it.
 
srfc said:
I'd disagree with that when there's lines about Britain standing alone, and barbarians being at the gates. They might have been at the gates of Stalingrad but they were nowhere near the gates of London, or even the cliffs of Dover.


EDIT: For the record, I have no problem with the song, or have any issue with Maiden singing about Churchill, at the end of the day whatever the flaws of Churchill he got it right on the major thing he needed to in his life. I was just surprised at the very "dads army" style poetic liberties taken to the lyrics from an actual history graduate.
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The reality of their situation is that Americans led the war and they were the second in line. Which makes Dickinson's point completely moot. People also tend to forget the Empire had business in Asia, Africa and elsewhere, like hunting nazi ships around South America, so this "at the gates" thing is simply bullshit.

They also screwed over Czechoslovakia which they should've defended by agreement, they also did not want to make an anti-German alliance with Soviets while Soviets had to buy themselves 2 years to finish strategic railway projects, which Brits knew, and they knew that it's a distinct possibility that Soviets will try to buy that time at the expense of Poland. They also supported bad guys in Yugoslavia in first two years.
 
Perun said:
I would agree with @srfc - Darkest Hour is clearly in character presenting the view Churchill had of the events.
It is not an unproblematic way to go about this subject in our current day and age, but strictly speaking it isn't claiming Churchill singlehandedly saved the world from the forces of evil, only that he thought it.
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Absolutely. If it were a Sabaton song I would not write a word about it. But from Dickinson I expected more thought provoking lyrics.
 
Zare said:
Absolutely. If it were a Sabaton song I would not write a word about it. But from Dickinson I expected more thought provoking lyrics.
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Same here, although I am not surprised considering that Bruce Dickinson uses Churchill as an inspirational figure in his TED talks to entrepreneurs...


Couldn't he use Steve Harris as an example of someone with a dogged determination? :D
 
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I think it's worth noting that the re-evaluation of Churchill's legacy over the past ~10 years is very much being driven by the phasing out of people of a certain age from academic and story-telling circles, the replacement of those with diverse figures & youth who do what always do at this point in the legacy of a major figure and question the rhetoric that we know to be true. Bruce is of an age with those being phased out, and he's not a trained consumer of historical fact.

Does the song make me roll my eyes a bit? Yes. Do I think Bruce is going out of his way to fluff the guy up? Potentially. Do I think that makes Bruce some sort of idiot, fool, or trying to deliberately carry water to avoid Churchill's many faults? Nah, I think he's just singing about someone he admires for the thing he admires the guy for.
 
Perun said:
It certainly is hard to reconcile how this comes from the same mind as Empire of the Clouds.
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It’s all a celebration of Britain’s glorious history. “Empire” still has all those images (“‘We’re down lads,’ came the cry”, instead of, “‘We led a bunch of people to their deaths by ignoring the weather and will now crash land here in France, fuck!’ I heard the captain swear”) but as a whole is just done way better.
 
Diesel 11 said:
It’s all a celebration of Britain’s glorious history. “Empire” still has all those images (“‘We’re down lads,’ came the cry”, instead of, “‘We led a bunch of people to their deaths by ignoring the weather and will now crash land here in France, fuck!’ I heard the captain swear”) but as a whole is just done way better.
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I mean, this is a matter of interpretation, but to me "Empire" reads like a caricature of British imperialism. Bruce evokes all the pathos of British grandeur but shows us it belongs to a mindset of people who are completely full of themselves ("royalty and dignitaries, brandy and cigars"), have the vision of a limitless empire ("to India they say, magic carpet float away"), but eventually all their bombast drags them down to their doom. The language is very British, but if there's one thing I know, or thought to know, about Bruce, it's that when he talks about Britain and British ambitions, he likes to be very tongue-in-cheek. I thought "Empire" was such great storytelling because Bruce uses the R101 disaster as a metaphor for the British Empire as a whole.
That's why it is so difficult for me to handle the completely unironic take on Churchill found in "Darkest Hour" as coming from Bruce. It celebrates the same pompous glorification that "Empire" parodies. I keep wondering if there's some layer to it that I just can't understand as a non-British person.
Of course, a good Englishman would probably just tell me I hate the song because I'm German and we lost the war to them.
 
I think it's just plain ol' cognitive dissonance. Churchill is celebrated as the preserver of the modern United Kingdom, rather than the last defender of the British Empire, for a certain group of folks.
 
Perun said:
I mean, this is a matter of interpretation, but to me "Empire" reads like a caricature of British imperialism. Bruce evokes all the pathos of British grandeur but shows us it belongs to a mindset of people who are completely full of themselves ("royalty and dignitaries, brandy and cigars"), have the vision of a limitless empire ("to India they say, magic carpet float away"), but eventually all their bombast drags them down to their doom. The language is very British, but if there's one thing I know, or thought to know, about Bruce, it's that when he talks about Britain and British ambitions, he likes to be very tongue-in-cheek. I thought "Empire" was such great storytelling because Bruce uses the R101 disaster as a metaphor for the British Empire as a whole.
That's why it is so difficult for me to handle the completely unironic take on Churchill found in "Darkest Hour" as coming from Bruce. It celebrates the same pompous glorification that "Empire" parodies.
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Spot on!
 
Perun said:
I thought "Empire" was such great storytelling because Bruce uses the R101 disaster as a metaphor for the British Empire as a whole.
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I agree, and I think your take is a great one I mostly agree with. The only thing is that in framing “Empire” as a tragedy, one can draw the conclusion that the fall of the British Empire is likewise a parody, one that Mr. Dickinson is incredibly sad over. But that could be picking at straws and looking for intentions that aren’t there in actual fact. As far as I know, Bruce just really likes England and British history and comes at it from a point of old-school gung-ho-ery with a dash of modern hipness. Kinda depends on the song as to where he achieves success best.
 
But, he speaks about R101 as a disaster project because the project was led by the state, rushed in service by the state, so they can display brandy and cigars in high skies. R100 was led by a private company and had a impeccable service record (recalled after several flights due to sister ship disaster) and he specifically used it as a counter-point to the disastrous R101. However both were paid for by the state and designed by the state. The "Empire's" involvement in R100 is still huge - entire R&D and entire operational funding. So the song simply can't be a critique of the Imperial system as a whole.

IRL the story of R101 is taking it really, really too far in terms of state control. The R101 was entirely state-run project, top to bottom. Which wasn't norm not even in the empires.

I would take it as a critique to R101 as a project, which can't be applied even to its class of ships let alone the entire Britain.
 
Don't forget Maiden are all post war kids. That has a huge factor in their outlooks and songwriting.

In regards to Darkest Hour, Bruce has even said he's not idolising Churchill and acknowledges he was a flawed character.

From the rolling stone interview; https://www.rollingstone.com/music/...n-bruce-dickinson-senjutsu-interview-1219598/

What is the Senjutsu song “Darkest Hour” about?
It’s about Churchill and how, for all his mistakes and his personal flaws — and there were plenty of them — he did one thing in his life, which was to stand up against this tyrant who would have engulfed the world in his madness … you know, Hitler. And Churchill stood up against the advice of lots of great, worthy people. Half his government was opposed to him, and he was just a cantankerous alcoholic, grumpy old git that went, “No. Had enough. You shall not pass. That’s it.”

But of course, he had his flaws, and that’s the point of the chorus: There he is, “naked by the throne of kings.” He suffered from depression, which is the line about the black dog stalking him, and the song is bookended by beach sounds at both ends. The beach at the beginning is Dunkirk, where basically we ran away and the beach at the end is D-Day. And both beaches were steeped in blood for different reasons.
 
srfc said:
I'll give Bruce the benefit of the doubt and say that those lyrics are referring to the pre-war period when he was a loan voice opposing appeasement, rather than it being Churchill claiming to have singlehandedly won WW2
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That's what I would have presumed. Churchill's claim to fame wasn't him being the real life inspiration for Rambo.
 
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