Sabaton
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There's definitely a balance that has to be maintained. To you and I, real history is in the details. In the art and the writings left behind. In the coins grubbed out of the ground, in the strange masks and the position of bodies in a grave. To the average person, history is a channel that has a lot of Nazis on it. We have to reach out to those people with stories, and draw them in to seeing the true value of the depths we enjoy. And we have to do it while reminding them that Napoleon was an asshole, Churchill was a racist, Columbus is responsible for 100m deaths via unintentional biological warfare. That's a tough balancing act. Things - and people like things - help.
Even these objects have their own story, though. Napoleon's jacket was made by someone for a reason. Maybe a bullet was not so elegant a selection, but even so, it was made by someone for a reason (and having locals tell me the story of the bullet was kinda interesting, a little jaunt into folk history). That person had a family, too, and making that bullet is part of their story.
JudasMyGuide
Ancient Mariner
You guys really paint a horrific picture of Sweden - if what you say about the anthem and flag (and historical figures and patriotism as a whole) is true, then it's really a very unpleasant political-correctness-gone-mad scenario and there's not only definitely a need for Sabaton; there should be more bands like them. The idea the state flag alone is considered nearly a neo-nazi object sends shivers down my spine.
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I have a Swedish friend who doesn't really have strong political views either way, but he thinks this has gone too far.
There's a bullshit phrase if I've ever heard one. Political correctness is a good thing, not a bad thing. Thanks to political correctness, lots of terribly offensive terms are dying off at a very rapid pace, and the area of governance is far more open due to political correctness.
Why? Because flags, a piece of cloth, deserve reverence for...reasons? The only reason the state flag is looked on in that life is because of the fascists claiming ownership over it, not because it's actually a fascist object. Defeat the fascists and the flag will return to its normal symbol.
Dr. Eddies Wingman
Brighter than thousand_suns
The problem is when the definition of what is "politically correct" becomes so narrow there's no more room for discussing everyday issues. In Sweden, I have the impression that either you share the mainstream attitude towards immigration, or you're labeled SD (i.e. the nationalist party which, to the surprise of many, won 10% of the seats in the last parliamentary election). When the mainstream attitude in the media, among top politicians and among culture celebrities (authors, actors, TV people etc.) is that the more immigration, the better, and even questioning this makes people think you're sympatizing with SD, there's no room for an actual debate.
And when even the thought of pride in anyhing Swedish becomes, to use Maturin's word, problematic, well, where is the middle ground? I actually think Sabaton are trying to claim that middle ground. You should be able to sing the national anthem without being accused of SD sympathies. And when writing something about 1600s Swedish history, you shouldn't have to just condemn everything in order to avoid the nationalist label.
To your last point, @LooseCannon: If the fascists aren't "defeated", shouldn't ordinary non-fascist people be allowed to sing the anthem or hoist the flag when they want to, without being accused of being fascists themselves?
And when even the thought of pride in anyhing Swedish becomes, to use Maturin's word, problematic, well, where is the middle ground? I actually think Sabaton are trying to claim that middle ground. You should be able to sing the national anthem without being accused of SD sympathies. And when writing something about 1600s Swedish history, you shouldn't have to just condemn everything in order to avoid the nationalist label.
To your last point, @LooseCannon: If the fascists aren't "defeated", shouldn't ordinary non-fascist people be allowed to sing the anthem or hoist the flag when they want to, without being accused of being fascists themselves?
JudasMyGuide
Ancient Mariner
I haven't said political correctness is a bad thing, I said too much of a political correctness is a bad thing (like too much of everything). When you're not allowed to use national anthem because "it doesn't represent minorities enough" or whatever, well... that's pretty much beyond the line for me.
I take flags as symbols of countries, nations. I believe you should be allowed to say you love your country, or are proud of it, without being accused of being a Nazi sympathizer.
Saying (e.g.) "I'm proud of being a Swede and my country is the best" doesn't mean "eliminate all the other nations, sieg heil", for crying out loud!
The fact "fascists claim ownership over it" is one more good reason to actually use it - I really don't see why fascists should clame ownership over anything, let alone the symbol of my/your/whoever's country.
Maturin
Sköldpadda
I agree.
This is a bit more complicated. There's plenty of Swedish history that doesn't have associations with the extreme right (or left). Gustav III seems like an excellent high-profile king to make a concept album about while avoiding the political associations; the man more known for importing culture and art than going to war, progressive in some ways, in others not. He also has a somewhat cult, but those people seem a bit more harmless, preferring to dress up and go to balls rather than put on boots and throw rocks at the police...
No, but if you ask me for the "why" of it, the multiculturalism that has formed the present day country would be the standard answer - tacos on fridays, kebab and pizza (Swedish pizza, a dish made possible by several cultures meeting and mixing), Zlatan Ibrahimovic...
Zlatan speaking the words of the national anthem in the Volvo-commercial, that's the middle ground. A big middle-finger to the nationalists who aren't sure if they'd really consider him Swedish or not.
Sabaton dressing up in military pants, waving the flag around and doing a bombastic arrangement of it isn't in good taste. See my point?
Taking objects/symbols that has been ascribed or associated with a meaning, and then doing nothing/little to counter-act that meaning, but using them because they are "cool" doesn't really work. Sabaton consisting of three Iraqi immigrants and two Swedes would have been something different entirely. Now they dress like neo-nazis, look like neo-nazis, and present themselves in a way that does nothing to neutralize the subjects they have decided to work with.
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CriedWhenBrucieLeft
Meme Only Account
This Sabaton thread is genuinely quite interesting.
I think it says something that they chose to make a Swedish version of Carolus Rex, a Swedish version that is far more anti-war than the English version. It suggests they are familiar with the problems therein, and as a result, tried to address it within the album context. Sabaton, as a band, isn't necessarily primarily for Swedes - their image is far less offensive in other countries.
I perfectly understand your point, but there is one important thing you're forgetting. While Carolus Rex is an album about Swedish history, this is an exception to their discography. Most of their songs are about praising the military history of countries like Poland, Czechoslovakia, Belgium or Greece, i.e. for the most part, countries that were attacked and invaded by the Nazis. Whenever they do address Nazism, it's in songs like Rise of Evil, Wehrmacht, The Final Solution and Inmate 4859, which specifically look at the dark and destructive aspects of Nazism.
Dr. Eddies Wingman
Brighter than thousand_suns
And since when was metal about good taste?
No, honestly, I can see that point.
Maturin
Sköldpadda
Not forgetting at all, I'm giving reasons for why I think their approach to the whole matter is problematic. They certainly don't want to come off as political, but they've included some elements which they have next to no control over. Symbols, whatever they are, are incredibly powerful and when you use one you know can be controversial you have to have a plan for it not to come back and hurt you. The commercial I posted is an excellent example of a redefinition with the help of context - by having Zlatan, a second generation Bosnian immigrant say those words it effectively neutralizes the nationalistic associations to xenophobia (which are damaging/unwanted aspects of it) and reinvents it for present day use.
Sabaton's plan is their lyrics. Fine, their lyrics are anti-Nazi and anti-war. But until you know that? Their artwork shows nothing anti-anything. I think they could have done a better job at putting the subject in context. Which leads me to the next question - do they really want to do that?
How many wouldn't do a double take on this artwork? You have an eagle, lions, flags, their "S"-logo that looks like a swastika until you actually take a closer look. Sure, it draws attention - Nazi WWII art, uniforms, architecture and symbols were nothing if not striking. But what does it say of the people who uses this to their advantage?
They probably knew Carolus Rex would be a mild controversy, and they were right - but it also meant an enormous commercial success and a Grammy win. First metal band to sell platinum in Sweden. Not bad. So they continue on their path with their next record - Heroes. I know the cover above isn't the standard album cover, but it was still used on the release for the digipak and Deluxe edition (as those gold letters tell you). Can you still argue that they are just a metal band who likes to sing about history and overlook the implications they are playing with?
Not really. This is, for me, a pure cynical use of associations to draw attention and for their own commercial gain. They can have their lyrics be about freaking Gandhi, it doesn't change the fact that they have this tension going on. On one side the flirt with these concepts, and on the other the harmless metal band who sing about wars, being anti everything bad and unwanted. If you don't like them, show proof of the former - if you like their music, you can show everyone their lyrics and prove the latter. A done deal, commercial genius of getting something out of everyone - if not a sold record/ticket so at least some controversy and free advertising.
So, to conclude this - I say that what they are doing is problematic. I've tried to explain my reasons for thinking so. I'm not hating on the band, can enjoy some parts of their music, while still not being totally at ease with the tension they create (that I am very critical of).
Again, I understand your point of view, and I'm not going to try to refute it, simply because I'm not from Sweden and don't have any first-hand observations on that. I'm trying to imagine what the reaction would be like if it were a German band using German symbols - but I'm not sure it's a valid comparison. For one, Germany did a lot of things that were a lot worse than what Sweden ever did, and then, it did that under different flags and symbols than are in use now. No neo-Nazi would ever use the black/red/gold flag. But still, the use of national symbolism on Sabaton's level would probably raise a few eyebrows. I get that.
Having said that, to me, as an outsider, Sabaton's use of national symbolism is as overblown as everything else they do, so it's hard for me to take it seriously. It seems more like ridiculing it, especially if you hold the Swedish lyrics of Carolus Rex against them, which, as you said, are much more sophisticated in their criticism than the English ones are. It seemed like a natural progression for me at the time when it came out, that they would make an album about Swedish history, given that they had dwelt on WW2 as long as possible (I was wrong on that, of course...) and having mentioned every country of Europe somewhere in their lyrics.
And to answer a specific point:
I think so, because the standard album cover has the national flags of Russia, Brazil, Italy, Norway, Poland, the UK, France and the US on it. To anyone outside of Sweden, them changing that artwork using the Swedish flag instead doesn't have any specific meaning other than referring to the band itself. I guess the question is, whom do Sabaton primarily market to? None of the Swedish nationalism controversy has any meaning to anyone outside Sweden, yet they play all the big festivals all around Europe. At some point, they must have noticed that everybody loves Sweden, so I guess they decided to play with that. Mind you, neither Carolus Rex, nor Swedish Empire Live, nor the Heroes deluxe edition are domestic releases.
Having said that, to me, as an outsider, Sabaton's use of national symbolism is as overblown as everything else they do, so it's hard for me to take it seriously. It seems more like ridiculing it, especially if you hold the Swedish lyrics of Carolus Rex against them, which, as you said, are much more sophisticated in their criticism than the English ones are. It seemed like a natural progression for me at the time when it came out, that they would make an album about Swedish history, given that they had dwelt on WW2 as long as possible (I was wrong on that, of course...) and having mentioned every country of Europe somewhere in their lyrics.
And to answer a specific point:
I think so, because the standard album cover has the national flags of Russia, Brazil, Italy, Norway, Poland, the UK, France and the US on it. To anyone outside of Sweden, them changing that artwork using the Swedish flag instead doesn't have any specific meaning other than referring to the band itself. I guess the question is, whom do Sabaton primarily market to? None of the Swedish nationalism controversy has any meaning to anyone outside Sweden, yet they play all the big festivals all around Europe. At some point, they must have noticed that everybody loves Sweden, so I guess they decided to play with that. Mind you, neither Carolus Rex, nor Swedish Empire Live, nor the Heroes deluxe edition are domestic releases.
Travis The Dragon
AFTERGLOW!!!
Hellz ya about the live release!
Sabaton has finally partnered with Paradox Entertainment to release an official Sabaton soundtrack to one of my favourite games of all time, Europa Universalis IV:
http://store.steampowered.com/app/415680/
http://store.steampowered.com/app/415680/
