Sabaton

What a pity. I personally don't like the fact we allow neo-Nazis to take so many things for themselves. So I really like the fact Sabaton made the album. And not just ideologically, but also because the album's awesome.

It would be fun if their next album was about Erwin Rommel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwin_Rommel. I have absolutely no doubts they would make this concept awesome. However, since they're being accused of neo-Nazi sympathies as is, it's probably not that likely.


BTW, yesterday evening I played to me and my wife @Perun 's A history of the Second World War in Europe as told by Sabaton playlist, while I played Call of Duty 1 for the first time in last ten years or so... and believe me, it was awesome. :D I totaly get that Poles love them for 40:1. Heck, listening to it, there were moments I wished I was a Pole. :lol:
 
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Rommel is such a unique character in history. His legacy is fascinating - but we wouldn't feel so kindly disposed to him if it wasn't for Churchill, who really pumped up Rommel's legacy at the time and after. When I was 12 I stumbled across a few novels set in the North African Campaign from the British point of view, and I was really pushed to start learning about history from hearing about this man's myth.

The man himself? Still an interesting and vibrant historical figure. But his myth is just glorious, isn't it?
 
Precisely. He is a man, who was respected both by Nazis and by their mortal enemies. He fought for Nazi Germany, yet he is still held in quite a high regard (let's remember for a while we live in a world where everyone hate Nazis, really). I honestly have no idea where the real truth begins and the myth ends (I definitely want to read a book about him), but I imagine he would be a perfect guy to create a concept album/movie/fictional book about. And who else but Sabaton to take up that task?

Maybe I'm just ignorant (and I'm willingly admitting it thus), but I feel we still miss more works of art that would concern itself with the Nazi Germany from a more complex point of view. Yes, it's possible such work would be a bait for neo-Nazis (however, you could say the same about Trainspotting and drug addicts, right?), but I simply don't believe every soldier, every commander, everyone in the Nazi Germany wanted the evil to prevail and to be "the bad guys". I mean, no one really want to be a bad guy, the one to lose, right? In fact, when I first read The Keep by F. Paul Wilson some two years ago, I thought the idea of sympathetic Nazis was a novel and a good one, really.
 
Neo-nazis are not someone you want to encourage, though. Drug users, that's a personal choice that affects you and your family. Nazis are kinda serious business. They are violent and dangerous at the small scale, but infinitely more so when they have public relations behind them. There's definitely a small-scale room for works of art that are, not pro-Nazi, but portray figures within Nazi Germany in a more sympathetic light, but small-scale only. There's only a few big figures that I can think of who would be publicly allowed to be more positively regarded on a broad scale - Rommel and Claus von Stauffenberg are the ones who come to mind. And only because they actively worked against Hitler.
 
WTF? Sabaton have been accused of being neo-Nazis? They sing about how horrible those times were. I bet the accusations came from anti-metal groups who accuse bands like AC/DC and Maiden of being Satanic.
 
Travis The Dragon said:
WTF? Sabaton have been accused of being neo-Nazis? They sing about how horrible those times were. I bet the accusations came from anti-metal groups who accuse bands like AC/DC and Maiden of being Satanic.
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Sorry, but you have no clue. They're touching on very controversial topics, topics that before them have been popularized among confirmed neo-nazi groups and nationalistic acts. The Swedish Empire and especially Karl/Charles XII (Carolus Rex) is an idol and icon for neo Nazi groups (though there is substantial evidence for and argued that the actual historical figure didn't have such views, but rather was pro-multiculturalism).

Sweden is not the US. The flag and the national anthem are getting very controversial outside of the most formal uses (sports, royal occasions, national day 6th of June etc.). Many schools have refused to feature the national anthem at graduations because of it not representing the minorities. And surely, the lyrics may indeed not represent what Sweden stands for today. Mainstream media is left leaning, and no rock band wanting to remain politically untied would ever agree to perform it.

Here comes Sabaton, if still resisting being called nationalists and not wanting any political ties, they're still playing on the spirit, claiming to be just about the music in what seems at least half like taking advantage of the nationalistic views that have been suppressed since WWII left Europe with a bitter taste for the phenomenon. Furthermore, they have predecessors doing the same thing very successfully in the 80's - notably viking rock band Ultima Thule (with the difference that those guys have confirmed ties to extreme right groups).

Fact remains that what they do is not unproblematic.
 
Ya, I completely see what you mean Maturin. And I just Googled "Sabaton accused of being Nazis" and I see how bad it really is. Well, that's the way things are and it's somewhat similar to when bands in the 80's were being accused of being Satanic.

Anyway, this is pretty cool:
 
Maturin said:
Fact remains that what they do is not unproblematic.
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Hmm, but couldn't it be that Sabaton are playing with this? With all this background, and the knowledge that the lyrics of Carolus Rex are very different in Swedish from the English version, all the overblown pomp surrounding the album comes off more as ridiculing it a bit, doesn't it?
 
Maturin said:
It is correct, yes. Not surprisingly, I don't think anyone outside of Sweden understand how much of a problem this part of our history is. Another factor would be general English skills of the band... It could just be as simple as them reverting to more cliché expressions in their English lyrics because they don't have a great feel for the language - they wouldn't be the first!

I've listened a bit to Carolus Rex, mostly because I'm very interested in hearing metal sung in my own language - there' no doubt at it being more powerful.

Let's look at the chorus of "A Lifetime of War":

Has man gone insane?
A few will remain
Who'll find a way
To live one more day
Through decades of war.
It spreads like disease,
There's no sign of peace.
Religion and creed
Cause millions to bleed.
Three decades of war.

My translation of Swedish version:

Because the war it can
Destroy a man
I give my life for my fatherland
But who misses me?
So see me as that
A husband, a friend
Father and son, who never comes home
But who mourns me?

...Quite a difference!
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I almost exclusively listen to the Swedish versions of the songs from Carolus Rex, because the Swedish lyrics actually carry more substance than the English ones. As you say, their English lyrics tend to be filled with clichés. The Swedish lyrics on this album shows more perspective. The song Carolus Rex itself does, in my opinion, paint Charles XII as a man with a very huge ego (his crown didn't come from the Church, but directly from God himself, Charles XII answers to noone but God). I don't see much praise for Charles XII in the lyrics (except for him praising himself).

If Neo-Nazis want to adopt this album as something that is in their spirit, it only shows what we know - that many Neo-Nazis belong to the least intelligent part of the population.
 
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Perun said:
But with this sort of artifact cult, it's hardly surprising that it inspires worship.
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I don't necessarily think that it inspires worship to keep artifacts of historical significance. We keep King Tut kicking around, don't we?
 
Yes, but I think there is a difference. King Tut's mask is something out of the ordinary to begin with, and its intention was memory. A bullet is something that is not usually kept around, and only by pointing out its significance it becomes an artifact. It just has a very different feel to me.
 
Dr. Eddies Wingman said:
If Neo-Nazis want to adopt this album as something that is in their spirit, it only shows what we know - that many Neo-Nazis belong to the least intelligent part of the population.
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It's an interesting discussion nevertheless and definitely doesn't just pertain to Sabaton. I think in general many extreme right wing or Neo-Nazis gravitate towards the symbolism or the ideals of militaristic influenced music, like Sabaton - But I'm also thinking about bands like Rammstein and a lot of Black Metal music deals with the same themes of war, militarism and power. There's a whole genre called National Socialist Black Metal....And you just need one look at their covers or lyrics and you'll see it's like 99% about an image surrounding war, honor...battles etc etc
 
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Perun said:
Yes, but I think there is a difference. King Tut's mask is something out of the ordinary to begin with, and its intention was memory. A bullet is something that is not usually kept around, and only by pointing out its significance it becomes an artifact. It just has a very different feel to me.
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We keep around tons of artifacts that are only important because of to whom they belong, be it Hitler's car, Napoleon's jacket, or the Spear of Longinus. On their own, these are a Mercedes, a blue coat, and a sliver of old metal. They only have historical value because they are associated to someone.

Yes, King Tut's mask is something out of the ordinary. But we also keep King Tut himself around as a museum piece.
 
LooseCannon said:
We keep around tons of artifacts that are only important because of to whom they belong, be it Hitler's car, Napoleon's jacket, or the Spear of Longinus. On their own, these are a Mercedes, a blue coat, and a sliver of old metal. They only have historical value because they are associated to someone.
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Agreed, and I'm a bit uneasy with that as well.

King Tut's mask is not important because it belonged to King Tut - a guy of very little historical significance - but because it is an archaeological object that tells us much about Egyptian art and history that we would otherwise not know. It's significance is not primarily because it was put on the guy's mummy.

Napoleon's jacket, Hitler's car and the bullet that killed Charles are not unique objects that have significant historical value in themselves. They are only kept around because they were worn or used by certain people, and that makes them artifacts of some sort of spiritual significance, and thus very easily objects of idolatry. I reject this.
 
Perun said:
Napoleon's jacket, Hitler's car and the bullet that killed Charles are not unique objects that have significant historical value in themselves. They are only kept around because they were worn or used by certain people, and that makes them artifacts of some sort of spiritual significance, and thus very easily objects of idolatry. I reject this.
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These sorts of things only become objects of idolatry if we allow it to be so. A smartly educated populace should recognize that there is the same value in the Shroud of Turin or a king-killing bullet than any other device we have saved. I do not think we should idolize the people of the past and treat things they touched as holy relics, but I do believe they retain meaning.
 
But what's the point of keeping that bullet around and putting it on display?
 
Maturin said:
Fact remains that what they do is not unproblematic.
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In Sweden. Because in Sweden, everything that can be associated with nationalism (and in a negative interpretation of nationalism at that) will be. And then condemned.

Not singing the national anthem on the last school day, because it doesn't represent the minorities? WTF? So if somebody want a national anthem that reflects the new Swedish identity, with multiculturalism and all - write one. Although I don't see a need for it, there is nothing in Du Gamla, Du Fria that belittles minorities. By having this fear of using the anthem (or the flag) outside the most formal events, you let the nationalists define what the anthem and the flag symbolize.

You are letting them define that the flag and the anthem represent chauvinistic and bad nationalism. You could let them represent pride in what you see as the good things of today's Sweden. A democratic, friendly and welcoming country, and not the imperialist Sweden of the 1600s.
 
Perun said:
But what's the point of keeping that bullet around and putting it on display?
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It's a direct connection to an event that is pretty important in Swedish history. The average person has a better chance of connecting to history when it's told through objects with interesting histories. To me, that is worth keeping. It's worth noting who Charles XII was, and what he did, because his decisions still have echoes today in Sweden. But the curators of the museum do not suggest the object is divine.
 
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