Russia invades Ukraine
- Thread starter Perun
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Vaenyr
Ancient Mariner
"And the threat of starting World War 3. Silly little West, afraid of nuclear fallout."
Azas
ELF
How much of your values you going to sacrifice till you going to do what is needed? In other words, keep repeating this mantra and the problem will go away. NOT.
Yeah, better to brag about elections in France and UK, look, democracy was defended! And all of this when ruzzia is destroying the core security structure of all Europe. Its beyond short-sightedness its infantile to the eternity
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Vaenyr
Ancient Mariner
How many millions of lives are you willing to risk? Nuclear annihilation is unfortunately a realistic outcome. Saying "let's attack Russia!" makes you feel good, but it's not reasonable or realistic in any way.How much of your values you going to sacrifice till you going to do what is needed? In other words, keep repeating this mantra and the problem will go away. NOT.
Yeah, better to brag about elections in France and UK, look, democracy was defended! And all of this when ruzzia is destroying the core security structure or all Europe. Its beyond short-sightedness its infantile to the eternity
Nuclear powers have gone to war directly exactly never, and it is smart to keep it that way, even if there is reason to believe both sides would be too afraid to fire nukes first, some things aren't worth the risk.
It is true to say that Russia has never yet thrown a nuke in response to the west giving more and more capacity and aid to Ukraine. But it is also fair to say that the change has been akin to boiling a frog alive slowly, rather than putting it right into boiling water. Each escalation has a chance to normalize before the next one.
It is true to say that Russia has never yet thrown a nuke in response to the west giving more and more capacity and aid to Ukraine. But it is also fair to say that the change has been akin to boiling a frog alive slowly, rather than putting it right into boiling water. Each escalation has a chance to normalize before the next one.
Jer
'Til Tomorrow
Biden has made it clear that if Russia uses tactical nukes in Ukraine that we will put conventional troops on the ground in Ukraine to help them fight. This seems like an appropriate red line to me if we hold it, because Putin will know that further attacks on Ukraine after that point will inevitably trigger NATO article 5, and he will clearly be the one who started the broader war. His choices at that point, at least if Trump doesn’t become president again, would be to cede all of Ukraine or start WWIII. He might still choose the latter option, but would his military actually execute his orders at that point? Hard to say.
I accept the correction but maintain the spirit of what I have said.
Kargil War - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Well, I do agree with that. I'm just saying we do have examples of countries deciding that escalating things into total nuclear annihilation isn't worth it. Given Putin's general contempt for human life, I'm not so hopeful with him though, I admit that.
Magnus
currently discounted
You keep wasting your time. Most people here know shit about the eastern side of the iron curtain - understandably, since they never lived there.How much of your values you going to sacrifice till you going to do what is needed? In other words, keep repeating this mantra and the problem will go away. NOT.
Yeah, better to brag about elections in France and UK, look, democracy was defended! And all of this when ruzzia is destroying the core security structure of all Europe. Its beyond short-sightedness its infantile to the eternity
Yax
Ancient Mariner
What he means is, most of us have no idea what it is like to live under the boot of Russia, and he's right (my grandmother, her sister and her mom fled from Estonia though to Sweden with nothing but the clothes on their bodies when Soviet invaded). Magnus knows though (?).
However, many of us are, quite rightly, terrified of a nuclear war with Russia, which isn't a remote possibility.
Azas
ELF
Spot on. And you know what? Putin as a mafia boss is COUNTING AND BANKING ON IT big time. He will not use nukes, because it will mean his DEATH.*
*one condition here. we presume that putin knows through back channels that the West definitely and unavoidably will answer to his actions harshly.
Oh boy, I may be so wrong here. In nuclear attack's case, there's a chance that The Mighty West still would choose - I STRONGLY CONDEMN! - scenario, but not decisive actions. Ha-ha-ha. In that case putin would surely win and would bank on his nuclear blackmail BIG TIME. You all still don't get it. The Collective West will have to grow a pair of big and hairy balls at some point in time just inevitably. Because if you will only strongly condemn all the time, putin's orcs will knock on your country's door sooner or later and will say: we have nukes, don't escalate, let us in.
Hmmm.... or maybe things are even worse....
Maybe, just maybe, deep down, all of you know that putin is not going after all of Europe and he will be satisfied with only Eastern Europe and maybe, just maybe, deep down, all of you are willing to sacrifice it. Because, you know: How many millions of lives are you willing to risk?
In that case you all are just a bunch of ..... (insert bad word here) And all those slogans about freedom, democracy and equality was just a hopium for the dumb. Nuclear blackmail did it's job. New World Disorder is here. Case closed.
(all of this post was written in a calm mood, and insults are just hypothetical, because, I believe, none of You are willing to sacrifice even smallest part of Europe, riiight? just a food for thought, as they say)
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Vaenyr
Ancient Mariner
Please explain in detail how opening attack on Russia is going to go according to your opinion. Specifically how we are supposed to avoid Russia using nukes once Putin feels too cornered.
Your entire rant hinges on this made up point. The same I asked of Magnus, I ask of you. Why the hell would a madman like Putin not use nukes when he reaches the point where he feels he's got nothing else to lose? A full-on war on Russia amounts to the start of World War III. One has to be deliberately obtuse to ignore this reality. It is absolutely naive to think that Putin would just roll over and not use everything at his disposal if he were to face his own destruction.
Trust me, I severely dislike Putin and what he's done to Russia. I wish there was a way to fight back against him without risking a war on a scale we have never seen before, but there's not. Blaming the West for not escalating to a war that would lead to countless casualties might make you feel better about what is happening, but it does not lead to any realistic solutions.
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Azas
ELF
It's all ok and fine. You know, you will always have your strong concerns and even stronger condemns. We have nothing to discuss here because we have fundamental differences here.
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Vaenyr
Ancient Mariner
No, don't be petty and continue with sarcasm. I'm asking you a genuine question:
How can we start a full-on war against Russia without risking nuclear annihilation? Why would Putin stop goin all-out if he'd reach a point of no return? Please, be specific instead of antagonizing us.
Yax
Ancient Mariner
Right, but is he putting UK troops on the ground? No, he's supplying arms.
Azas
ELF
Yes, it's about Stormshadows. The problem is, i think, UK has not very much of those rockets. USA on the other hand has, but insists that 'will not change it's policy regarding deep strikes"
If Ukraine would have ability to strike russia's military airfields, do you think putin still would be bombing Ukraine? Yeah, riiiight, like he now "controls" Black Sea. Every time his army gets smack in the teeth, he backtracks.
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