Russia invades Ukraine

[Vaenyr]

Posts some incendiary stuff and then goes "ok, stop" lol

The things you mention (everyone being equal) are left wing ideals.

"Queers for Palestine" isn't stupid, regardless of what your memes told you. Human rights are not reserved for people we agree with. I'm an atheist and would be stoned to death in many countries of the world, but I still believe every human deserves the same rights and that no one should be ethnically cleansed by a far right government. It's a matter of integrity and what you are saying, without realizing probably, is that you think only people you agree with deserve human rights. That's a reeeeally bad look.

And boogeyman like "political correctness" or "wokeness" are just that. It's fighting strawmen instead of addressing the actual raised points, since the latter is obviously much more effort.

Also, it's kinda annoying when someone posts objectively incorrect stuff, gets called out on it, and then either goes "yeah, I'm not talking about facts, just about stuff I heard" or even ignores the point entirely to then focus on one's subjective feelings.

But yeah, there obviously is no interest in proper discussion and a chance to educate and understand each other, so I'll drop it. To bring it back to the original point: So far, every time you blamed leftism what you described had absolutely nothing to do with leftism whatsoever. Do with that information what you want.

 

[Diesel 11]

Just want to point out here since you’re ranting about Democrats/leftists and immigration — the GOP just blocked a bipartisan bill for border security because Trump wants to exploit the “border crisis” as a campaign issue. So are New York Democrats really the problem here?

 

[Azas]

Posts some incendiary stuff and then goes "ok, stop" lol

Man, I wrote "stop" for myself.

Harmony and understanding
Sympathy and trust abounding
No more falsehoods or derisions
Golden living dreams of visions
Mystic crystal revalation
And the mind's true liberation
Aquarius!
Aquarius!

 

[Azas]

Just want to point out here since you’re ranting about Democrats/leftisememberts and immigration — the GOP just blocked a bipartisan bill for border security because Trump wants to exploit the “border crisis” as a campaign issue. So are New York Democrats really the problem here?

But as american you have not clarified, I was telling the truth regarding New York handling of immigration? Or I was telling blatant lies?

Obviously, how New York handles immigration is not my problem and not my business. I am not citizen of US. It's just my reaction on the issue. I would be against it at the same time being anti Trump.

Edit: some clarification from me. Regarding hypothetical immigration stream to New York. Region Government: look this quarter we have 10 000 immigrants. Ok, lets give them where to live, some money. Ok. We are good people. Yes, indeed. Another quarter passes: look we have another 20 000 immigrants. Ok, give them a shelter and money. Year passes by but the stream of immigrants is becoming only bigger. Hypothetical Government is not solving the problem only creating new problems. There's breaking point somewhere down the line. Housing problems and most importantly integration problems. Of course, US is very big country and has big people absorbtion, work market capacities and I hope they know what they are doing. So, for me this case (even if hypothetical ) is bad example of acting reactively and not proactively. You must regulate things. Same applies for Europe. If you want to avoid ghetos, you must regulate how many people migrate to your country. And most importantly you must integrate those people in your social life which is not very easy thing to do.

-------
One more point regarding my stance. You must remember that I am coming from country which total population with emmigrants is little over 3 000 000 people. We are very homogenous nation. We were enslaved and tortured by ruzzia so it's in our blood the need to preserve our identity as a nation. I am open to other people, but as a nation we certainly don't have the luxury to accept many thousands of immigrants, we just can't. There's no such integration and work market capacities. As far as I know now our land must accomodate hundred or several hundred around 158 immigrants per year or something along the lines, which is fine by me.

 

[Vaenyr]

@Azas, instead of editing your comment multiple times, which doesn't notify anyone, post that in the US politics thread where people can discuss that without derailing this thread even more.

 

[Azas]

I think I am wise enough after all. If Director of the Scowcroft Strategy Initiative and Senior Fellow at @ACScowcroft at @AtlanticCouncil is thinking similar like me, I am not meme man after all. You just have some common sense or not, it's simple as that.


in other words, you have some political balls or you just shivering every time when terrorist is blabbering. To try to avoid escalation is direct invitation for dictator to do it. Because he sees that you are a coward and condemner.
Sweden today gave permission to attack ruzzian territory. USA and Scholz acting like... Name it yourself.

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[LooseCannon]

I've read that Biden's let the Russians know that if they deploy nuclear weapons in Ukraine, the USA will destroy their tactical nuclear capacity and then enter the war with conventional weapons. Which is probably the biggest possible threat, given that we shouldn't threaten actual nuclear war.

 

[Azas]

It's a progress, if true.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1796273784296743161

 

[Azas]

This is so friggin true... Like, we are yelling about russia's rotteness, bluffing and mafia style for two+ years, but the well educated Westerners still can't/don't want to believe/accept any of that.

 

[Magnus]

Here's a comment from a random user in the Nasha Niva Belarusian opposition site I think you might like @Azas even though it's in russian

 

[Azas]

Here's a comment from a random user in the Nasha Niva Belarusian opposition site I think you might like @Azas even though it's in russian

Indeed, russian only can live/thrive in the shit/shitty environment, he's not used to normal civilized life. They'd be, like: yes we live in SHIT, but we are GREAT EMPIRE.
(I understand russian perfectly. I learned it in school, my country still was in that shitthole USSR)

 

[Magnus]

And now you will be reprimanded for that post by people who don't understand that when dealing with a tumor or a rabid dog you either kill it or it kills you, as simple as that. You don't negotiate with either of them, don't meditate upon them, don't think that there were maybe some good cells in the tumor before, or it was a good dog before.
Before does not matter anymore.

 

[Azas]

That's part of the civilized West problem. They think that they can coexist with a monster near by. Or, maybe, they understand that misty ruzzian soul pretty good but don't want to solve the problem once and for all. It takes too much effort. Also, russia throws enormous money to influence western politicians/journalists, etc. (I am pretty sure Orban is one of them) Look at those russia appeasers and putin verstehers after two years of war! divide and conquer logic applies here.

 

[LooseCannon]

I don't think of an entire people as tumors, I don't think of entire countries as rabid dogs. They're still human, and human life is precious and should be protected where possible. I am not a pacifist, but I do think that war is bad, and that wars waged recklessly and carelessly often lead to far more destruction of human life than expected.

I support helping Ukraine defend themselves, as well as the expansion of NATO (a system that protects most of Europe from Russian invasion). What I am not willing to risk is a global war, with millions and millions dead, and the possibility of a nuclear catastrophe. Even if you could tell me, for sure, that the Russians would not kick off a nuclear event during a NATO vs Russia war, I would still hesitate to invade Russia, because I don't believe you can meaningfully force change onto the Russian system from the outside, unless you're willing to basically depopulate the nation. And that would be genocide.

 

[Azas]

I don't think of an entire people as tumors, I don't think of entire countries as rabid dogs. They're still human, and human life is precious and should be protected where possible. I am not a pacifist, but I do think that war is bad, and that wars waged recklessly and carelessly often lead to far more destruction of human life than expected.

Valid point and I agree that not all russians are bad, but reality on the ground is always grim. I look for examples in history and... Not all Germans were bad in 1945 but... Dresden was bombed nonetheless. There's certainly points of no return and you have to act, because otherwise you will die/lose. If putin will decide to go all in, the West will have to answer. That's the reality of life/war/death.

But despite all risks, trying to negotiate with putin in my eyes is infantile and criminal. The problem will not go away. And the West would lose it's credibility as beacon of democracy with all the consequences.

 

[LooseCannon]

The bombing of Dresden is universally considered a warcrime by educated people in the west; unnecessary in scale and scope and certainly not needed to win the war. It shouldn't have happened, and it is atrocities like that which people are striving to avoid. Add in the simple fact that you probably can't dismantle the Russian state meaningfully, war is not a long lasting option. I agree that negotiating with Putin is likely futile; even if a peace were to be negotiated in Ukraine, it would surely be just a delay for him to rebuild his army and strike again. But the Ukrainians will not win the war by marching through Moscow, it can only end at the negotiating table.

 

[____no5]

I don't think of an entire people as tumors, I don't think of entire countries as rabid dogs. They're still human, and human life is precious and should be protected where possible. I am not a pacifist, but I do think that war is bad, and that wars waged recklessly and carelessly often lead to far more destruction of human life than expected.

I support helping Ukraine defend themselves, as well as the expansion of NATO (a system that protects most of Europe from Russian invasion).

I agree 1000% that we cannot treat an entire people as tumors. This is a deeply dehumanising view (fascist is too small a word for that), quite a few steps beyond bigotry. I wish no-one in this Forum really thinks that way.

I think NATO expansion was a huge mistake and especially US pushed so hard for Ukraine.
The build up started almost immediately after the fall of USSR in 1990s with US backing Chechnya wars. Around that time you have US strategists openly support the balkanisation of Russia. Then NATO expansion, US exit for anti-ballistic treaty, more NATO expansion, Orange Revolution, Ukraine invited, Maidan regime change, Minsk Agreements etc. In retrospect, Russophobia had nothing to do with Communism, or Russia would have received the Poland treatment after USSR; it is a British Empire legacy that goes back to 1850s.
In all, I can understand why Russians freaked out.

What I am not willing to risk is a global war, with millions and millions dead, and the possibility of a nuclear catastrophe. Even if you could tell me, for sure, that the Russians would not kick off a nuclear event during a NATO vs Russia war, I would still hesitate to invade Russia, because I don't believe you can meaningfully force change onto the Russian system from the outside, unless you're willing to basically depopulate the nation. And that would be genocide.

This is a good approach, but I'm afraid the ship has sailed years ago. Russia /Putin demonised by West status quo & mainstream media to the point of Hitler, which was very toxic path to take. One would expect comments like yours appearing more often from our leaders, but they got trapped in their own narrative and now is difficult to go back.

I see very reckless behaviour from the West lately: some very stupid comments like Prime Minister of Estonia's call to balkanise Russia, Macron sending troops (everyone tries to keep it under the radar including Russians), F-16 that will take off from NATO countries or US supporting hits deep inside Russia, i.e., the early warning radars 1000+ kms inside the country, wouldn't be possible without data from US satellites.
And I really hope I'm wrong, but to my disappointment I think we are heading towards a hot war, with NATO countries openly involved.

Only a strong US president could tame this madness, an Ike-like or JFK-like character or if we had more measured people currently in the Administration like Bill Burns.
Quite the opposite. Nuland (now gone but still influential through the Institute for the Study of War) is the definition of arch-hawk while Blinken doesn't return the calls from his counterpart Lavrov (of course, you don't talk to "Hitler"), despite the countries still having diplomatic relations, it's all you need to know that it's fucked up.

US & Russia should talk extensively in the background, which is not happening, but this is exactly what saved us from a nuclear war in 1962.

 

[Azas]

The bombing of Dresden is universally considered a warcrime by educated people in the west; unnecessary in scale and scope and certainly not needed to win the war. It shouldn't have happened, and it is atrocities like that which people are striving to avoid. Add in the simple fact that you probably can't dismantle the Russian state meaningfully, war is not a long lasting option. I agree that negotiating with Putin is likely futile; even if a peace were to be negotiated in Ukraine, it would surely be just a delay for him to rebuild his army and strike again. But the Ukrainians will not win the war by marching through Moscow, it can only end at the negotiating table.

Like I said, reality on the ground is always grim. With faults and errors.

So far, nobody's gonna invade russia. The plan is to force changes from within. Sensible elites should overthrow putin as he will become too toxic for russia. This may work out, may not.

 

[Azas]

Regarding to what No5 wrote.... oh boy...

Maybe he has good intentions, but man completely sits in pro ruzzia narratives and has no slightest idea about it. NATO did this, Ukraine's Maidan did that.... WTF, MAN???
Ukrainians were fed up with incompetent rulers, so Maidan was natural revolution of dignity. Ukrainians wanted to integrate with Europe, not russia. (of course, No5 will say that Maidan was USA's work, ha ha ha)
We, as Lithuanians, decided that we want to run from ruzzia as far as we can, like from mad dog or bear, so we elected those who made every effort for Lithuania to become part of EU and NATO. And we succeeded, was in time. By your logic, Europe should ask ruzzia: can Lithuania become member of EU? And NATO? We all know, what russia would answer. Fuck, you ever heard about INDEPENDENCE and SOVEREIGNTY? We, lithuanians, as a nation, will decide what's good for us, not some rotten cannibalistc empire!!!! Understand this once and for all. And get off those pro ruzzian information channels!

I'll repeat, sovereign nations will decide what's good for them not ruzzia, country which has long history of bad behaviour. Jeebus, it's not even funny, it's infuriating. Educated Fool, indeed.

edit: and Estonia's prime minister Kaja Kallas is doing very good!
edit 2: I think you do not understand this song lyrics at all...

Wake alone in the hills
With the wind in your face
It feels good to be proud
And be free and a race that is part of a clan
To live on highlands
With the air that you breathe
So pure and so clean
When alone on the hills
With the wind in your hair
With a longing to feel
Just to be free
Is it right to believe
In the need to be free
It's a time when you die
And without asking why
Can't you see what they do
They are grinding us down
They are taking our land
That belongs to the clans
Not alone with a dream
Just a want to be free
With a need to belong
I am a clansman
Freedom
Freedom
Freedom
Freedom
It's a time wrought with fear
It's a land wrought with change
Ancestors could hear what is happening now
They would turn in their graves
They would all be ashamed
That the land of the free has written in chains
And I know what I want
When the timing is right
Then I'll take what is mine
I am the clansman
And I swear to defend
I will fight to the end
And I swear that I'll never be taken alive
And I know that we'll stand
We'll fight for a land
And I swear that my bairns
Will be born free
And I know what I want
When the timing is right
Then I'll take what I want
I am the clansman
Freedom
Freedom
Freedom
Freedom
No, no we can't let them take anymore
No we can't let them take anymore
We're the land of the free
No, no we can't let them take anymore
No we can't let them take anymore
We're the land of the free
No, no we can't let them take anymore
No we can't let them take anymore
No we can't let them take anymore
We're the land of the free
Oh, oh-oh-oh-oh, oh
Oh-oh-oh-oh, oh
Oh-oh-oh-oh
Oh, oh-oh-oh-oh, oh
Oh-oh-oh-oh, oh
Oh-oh-oh-oh
Oh, oh-oh-oh-oh, oh
Oh-oh-oh-oh, oh
Oh-oh-oh-oh, oh
Oh-oh-oh-oh
Freedom
Freedom
Freedom
Freedom
Is it right to believe
In the need to be free
It's a time when you die
And without asking why
Can't you see what they do
They are grinding us down
They are taking our land
That belongs to the clans
Not alone with a dream
Just a want to be free
With a need to belong
I am a clansman
And I know what I want
When the timing is right
Then I'll take what is mine
I am the clansman
Freedom
Freedom
Freedom
Freedom
And I know what I want
When the timing is right
Then I'll take what is mine
I am the clansman

 

[Vaenyr]

So, let me get this straight: Putin is a quasi-fascistic leader of an imperialist regime that invades sovereign countries in the effort to take them over, but the West is the bad guy for accurately describing him and his actions?

Man, the pro-Russia propaganda really has cooked some brains it seems.