Russia invades Ukraine

Azas said:
You miss the whole point. Merkel is putin's agent. Why she does not speak about Ukraine and what russia done there? Why she is so concerned about ruzzia? ruzzia's future is not important. Now is super important to drive ruzzia's army out of Ukraine. Period. ruzzia must be defeated and greatly weakened. Europe's democracy is in great danger.
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You have lost the ability to appreciate any level of grey in the world. It must be so comforting to be so black and white.

Discussing the future of Europe, hopefully a peaceful future, isn't acting as Russia's agent. It is true that Merkel's energy policy will be viewed incredibly poorly, and handed Putin a weapon to use against Europe. It's also true that despite that cudgel, Europe remains solidly behind Ukraine.

European leaders are trying to avoid an escalation of the war. Yes, it'll be great if Ukraine defeats Russia and shoves them out of their country. But if Putin feels like Europe is coming for him, he could do something very desperate and very bad. We're walking a tightrope right now.
 
Ah, I see.... You know, for us, East Europeans, there's no 'grey' in this war. No way, Sir. 'Grey' would be unforgivable luxury. Even criminal. With all due respect, You are so out of touch about this whole thing, that isn't even funny. :facepalm: I live near russia, I speak russian very well, and I understand those people. This mafia country must be defeated. Period.
 
Azas said:
Ah, I see.... You know, for us, East Europeans, there's no 'grey' in this war. No way, Sir. 'Grey' would be unforgivable luxury. Even criminal. With all due respect, You are so out of touch about this whole thing, that isn't even funny. :facepalm: I live near russia, I speak russian very well, and I understand those people. This mafia country must be defeated. Period.
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So you think theres absolutely no chance of Putin firing nukes whatever happens?
 
Flashing back to a couple months ago when the line against Maiden was "If they don't make a statement that reads like mine word for word, then they SUPPORT PUTIN."
 
Azas said:
Ah, I see.... You know, for us, East Europeans, there's no 'grey' in this war. No way, Sir. 'Grey' would be unforgivable luxury. Even criminal. With all due respect, You are so out of touch about this whole thing, that isn't even funny. :facepalm: I live near russia, I speak russian very well, and I understand those people. This mafia country must be defeated. Period.
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You foolishly attempt to make enemies out of those who are your friends. If you think "grey" is a "luxury" then you're simply wrong. That's the sort of attitude that gets people killed.

You are literally out of touch with how international politics and relations works. Your attitude would start a nuclear war, if it was allowed to be in charge.

Nobody here thinks Russia should be allowed to defeat Ukraine. Not a single person. Nobody thinks Russia should be allowed to keep the territories they've annexed. Nobody thinks they should be given peace on terms favourable to them. Yet if someone suggests that perchance there's nuance, you ramp up your rhetoric, as if screaming louder will somehow make you more right. This has become unacceptable. If you cannot control your emotions and participate civilly and with an open mind, you will be removed from the topic. This is a discussion forum, not a propaganda screaming forum.

At the end of the day, the only country who can choose to stop fighting this war is Russia. Our job is to make them choose peace. We're doing it via economic sanctions and via empowering the Ukrainians to kill Russian invaders, a task with which they have proven incredibly adept to date. You are lucky enough to live in a NATO country, which means you have Article 5 protection, something that the Ukrainians do not have, and should Russia choose further aggression, then they would be brought to heel. But NATO cannot risk a nuclear war, even to defend Ukraine, by intervening more. What Russia can do to a country is terrible, what nuclear winter would do is far worse. That is the reality you are ignoring.
 
Christopher Baines said:
So you think theres absolutely no chance of Putin firing nukes whatever happens?
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there's very little chance. Putin knows that if he will use nukes, US will punish him. And nukes doesn't solve problems on the battlefield. Ukraine won't surrender. Country will continue to fight, but russia's problems will grow exponentially. Problem will arise if the west will surrender to nuclear blackmail. All this I said is not only 'my opinion', I listen to Ukrainian and russian political commentators exiles.
 
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LooseCannon said:
You foolishly attempt to make enemies out of those who are your friends. If you think "grey" is a "luxury" then you're simply wrong. That's the sort of attitude that gets people killed.

You are literally out of touch with how international politics and relations works. Your attitude would start a nuclear war, if it was allowed to be in charge.
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Blah, blah, blah.... politics does not work on the battlefield. On the battlefied guns are speaking. Ukraine need guns. More and more guns. And only then, when russia will see that there's no friggin chance to defeat Ukraine, only then politics will enter the stage. You will see it. How many times Macron called putin and asked to stop the war??? Hello, that's politics for you. None of this works, because putin is not political person in the western understanding. He is mafia mob, and he will back down only then, when he will be punched in the face HARD. Period.
 
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And yet you continue to ignore reality. France is the *single largest supplier of arms to Ukraine since 2014*. So yes, Macron calls Putin and says stop the war. He knows that Putin will ignore him, meanwhile, Ukraine is using French weapons to kill Russians. Executing on the forms of politics is critical to maintaining the international system.

The West understands that the only people who can remove Putin are the Russians, likely the oligarchs or military, when they get fed up with losing. Ukraine will not march victorious through the Red Square. And part of convincing people in Russia to remove Putin is reminding them that Russia can restore part of its place in the international system by doing so.
 
LooseCannon said:
You foolishly attempt to make enemies out of those who are your friends. If you think "grey" is a "luxury" then you're simply wrong. That's the sort of attitude that gets people killed.

You are literally out of touch with how international politics and relations works. Your attitude would start a nuclear war, if it was allowed to be in charge.

Nobody here thinks Russia should be allowed to defeat Ukraine. Not a single person. Nobody thinks Russia should be allowed to keep the territories they've annexed. Nobody thinks they should be given peace on terms favourable to them. Yet if someone suggests that perchance there's nuance, you ramp up your rhetoric, as if screaming louder will somehow make you more right. This has become unacceptable. If you cannot control your emotions and participate civilly and with an open mind, you will be removed from the topic. This is a discussion forum, not a propaganda screaming forum.

At the end of the day, the only country who can choose to stop fighting this war is Russia. Our job is to make them choose peace. We're doing it via economic sanctions and via empowering the Ukrainians to kill Russian invaders, a task with which they have proven incredibly adept to date. You are lucky enough to live in a NATO country, which means you have Article 5 protection, something that the Ukrainians do not have, and should Russia choose further aggression, then they would be brought to heel. But NATO cannot risk a nuclear war, even to defend Ukraine, by intervening more. What Russia can do to a country is terrible, what nuclear winter would do is far worse. That is the reality you are ignoring.
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Probably the most sensible thing said on this post. It sums up the whole sitiation. There are plenty of injustices including warfare around the world not just in Ukraine yet nobody does anything. Nato are doing what the can to help Ukraine and let Putin know invasion is not acceptable but cannot risk WW3. And Ukraine is not even a Nato member.
 
Yes, Ukraine will not march through the red square, they only want to reclaim their land. If US will continue lend lease of guns, Ukraine will drove russians out of their country. Then putin's regime will collapse and only then Ukraine will begin to negotiate with the new government, regarding reparations, etc. New russia's government most likely, will be not democratic but this new regime will have no options and will accept new reality. (Because of sanctions and Ukraine's military power.)
 
Azas said:
there's very little chance. Putin knows that if he will use nukes, US will punish him. And nukes doesn't solve problems on the battlefield. Ukraine won't surrender. Country will continue to fight, but russia's problems will grow exponentially. Problem will arise if the west will surrender to nuclear blackmail. All this I said is not only 'my opinion', I listen to Ukrainian and russian political commentators exiles.
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Very little chance is not good enough is it. If theres any chance at all then the west needs to be careful.
 
"Nato are doing what the can to help Ukraine and let Putin know invasion is not acceptable but cannot risk WW3."

You can't see the forest through the trees.... Let's say, putin now will remain in power. And in foreseeable future he will decide to attack one of the Baltic Countries. Let's say, my homeland, Lithuania... So, you guys, who sees "gray" in this war will say.. Uh, oh, despite Lithuania is a NATO member we cannot risk the world with WW3. After that NATO will cease to exist. If NATO will decide to defend Lithuania, then NATO soldiers will fight and die in this hypothetical war, whereas in today's war, ukrainians do all the hardwork.
To eliminate this possibility putin's regime must fall now.
 
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Christopher Baines said:
Very little chance is not good enough is it. If theres any chance at all then the west needs to be careful.
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yes yes, we must appease putin and call for peace when he is bombarding Ukraine's infrastructure and kills civillian people. Sarcasm.
I repeat, many of the westerners does not understand nature of putin's regime. He is not shahid, he is a billionaire and he wants to live. He raises stakes, when he is losing, in hopes that the West will surrrender to his blackmail.
 
Flaming Blimp Crash said:
So, what Merkel said then?
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Problem with Merkel is that she appeared from her retirement when russia is losing badly. Even I understand that between the lines she calls for negotiations with russia. And we all know that putin's regime now is begging for negotiations. He even said that in his speach when annexed four regions. But he immediately said that those annexed regions will remain with russia. Of course, Ukraine will not accept such conditions, especially when russia is losing. So, my point is, Merkel plays in putin's favor. No one can deny this. Nord Stream 2 project is the best illustration of some agreements behind the curtain. She put Germany on gas needle of ONE, not democratic country and began to close nuclear powerplants.
 
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Azas said:
Uh, oh, despite Lithuania is a NATO member we cannot risk the world with WW3. After that NATO will cease to exist. If NATO will decide to defend Lithuania, then NATO soldiers will fight and die in this hypothetical war, whereas in today's war, ukrainians do all the hardwork.
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This is literally not how NATO works. If a Russian soldier enters a NATO country and triggers Article 5, then all NATO countries will defend that nation, nuclear war or not. There's no potentiality otherwise.

Even in a situation where the USA is neutered by a resurgent Trump, the rest of the Alliance will act. And thanks to Putin, it will be a much stronger Alliance in Europe.

Atop that I think Putin has proven that they couldn't take more than a few feet of NATO soil before they get the shit kicked out of them. You think Ukraine is doing a number? NATO would wreck them.
 
Just thoght how lucky we were in 1989. The time frame for a German reunite was extremely narrow: It would not have been possible any earlier, neither would it have been possible much later. I just don't wanna imagine how different the situation would have been if the peaceful revolution on the streets of Eastern German would have met a Russian leader Putin...
 
Saapanael said:
Russian and Ukrainian are similar languages and every Ukrainian I've met can speak Russian.
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Indeed, but speaking Russian to the level to be capable of operational deception is a little different to a Ukrainian speaking Russian casually.
 
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