Russia invades Ukraine

____no5 said:
The hatred and determination during this very dangerous escalation worries me. There were no valid reason why Russia would invade a NATO country or Finland. And I agree with the appeasement argument to an extent but here we have an actual NATO -Russian war with Ukrainian soldiers. Sanctions alone would be enough. Arms we gave a lot. Billions of military help already. Now it’s going too far. No single country is so important for such a high risk for all the rest. Should Russia invades in NATO territory let’s reply. We should take a step back or see how to extinguish the fire instead of fuelling it.
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Sorry I don't agree. He can't be allowed to just do as he pleases and blame the consequences on everyone who wasn't prepared to let him get away with it (classic bullying behaviour). He can't be allowed to just trample all over another, smaller, country and expect the rest of the world to just stand back and look after their own interests.

He must be stopped, plain and simple.
 
____no5 said:
The hatred and determination during this very dangerous escalation worries me. There were no valid reason why Russia would invade a NATO country or Finland. And I agree with the appeasement argument to an extent but here we have an actual NATO -Russian war with Ukrainian soldiers. Sanctions alone would be enough. Arms we gave a lot. Billions of military help already. Now it’s going too far. No single country is so important for such a high risk for all the rest. Should Russia invades in NATO territory let’s reply. We should take a step back or see how to extinguish the fire instead of fuelling it.
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Your speech is exactly what russia wants. I can hear notes of russian propaganda here: 'let's not anger the bear'. F* em. No more backing down. The West must be strong this time, and get putin by the throat. No more kneeling before mafia mob. putin's regime has to go.
 
Well this could go for ever so let me say one last thing. I'll be happy if I could make you think.

There is something that’s called risk to reward ratio. Before proceeding with a move you assess both and if it’s favourable you proceed. We already know the risk. What exactly is the reward for us the people for such a huge risk? US they have a good reason to fuel the war. Them I understand. I can understand Baltic countries & Poland. What about the rest of EU? What exactly is the reward for us for such a risk?
And before you tell me justice, there was no justice in Iraq. Or Turkey occupying half Cyprus and a piece of Syria still today. Or bombing North Iraq 2 weeks ago and the world didn’t blink. Or the worst of all US killing quarter a million Japanese civilians with Atomic Bombs is still not classified as war crime or crime against humanity. Thus it’s not about justice.

If it's not about justice, then give me a reward. We already gave arms tons of them. We did sanctions. Prices go up and next winter people will suffer back home. We did our part. What exactly is the reward for us European people to further escalate it? As I said what makes me worry is that simple people like us with nothing to gain from this story have a blind anger and don’t see the risks of what they wish for.

And you know what? I wish you are right. And I hope and I pray that I'm wrong.
I will stop for now and will not continue the debate. I said enough and there's nothing more I have to say at this point.
 
The atmosphere is in the West is to fully support Ukraine now, rightfully so. How about in a year, when we feel the effects? We will see who will still be behind justice, but I'm pessimistic. The populists left and right are just waiting for the mood to change; remember what happened to "Wir schaffen das"? It is very easy to shout now and then blame Biden, Macron, Scholz etc.
 
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____no5 said:
Or the worst of all US killing quarter a million Japanese civilians with Atomic Bombs is still not classified as war crime or crime against humanity. Thus it’s not about justice.
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The reality of this is far more nuanced than you suggest. Here’s some more context if you’re interested: https://www.thedailybeast.com/were-hiroshima-and-nagasaki-war-crimes-its-not-so-simple

As I understand it, it would only have been a war crime at the time if there were no legitimate military targets at the bomb sites or if it were an unnecessary or disproportionate step to achieve the objective of winning the war. Given that a land invasion of Japan was estimated to cause over 1 million additional casualties, and intelligence showed that Japan had no intention of surrendering with acceptable terms prior to the use of the nuclear bombs, it would be hard to make either of those arguments.

Were the nuclear bombings horrific? Of course. Were they less horrific than a land invasion that would have killed 4 times as many people? I would guess that the roughly 750,000 people who avoided dying as a result of that decision would say yes.

Also worth noting that the conventional bombing campaigns in Japan that preceded the nuclear bomb drops killed more people than the nuclear bombings themselves. And, of course, Japan has long since forgiven the United States, and the U.S. helped to rebuild Japan into a relatively wealthy and free democracy in the aftermath of the war.

If you want to talk about U.S. war crimes, you should be focusing on the so-called “war on terror” instead.

____no5 said:
What exactly is the reward for us European people to further escalate it? As I said what makes me worry is that simple people like us with nothing to gain from this story have a blind anger and don’t see the risks of what they wish for.
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Have I suddenly been transported to Munich in 1938…?
 
I believe US did that because they didn’t want to lose any of their people, not the other way around.
I also heard that the bombing of Tokyo had even more dead civilians than Hiroshima & Nagasaki.

@Jer I pointed US and Turkey (both NATO countries) to show how when things are in our side we tend to not see /forget.
Everyone does atrocities during a war.
 
____no5 said:
And before you tell me justice, there was no justice in Iraq. Or Turkey occupying half Cyprus and a piece of Syria still today. Or bombing North Iraq 2 weeks ago and the world didn’t blink. Or the worst of all US killing quarter a million Japanese civilians with Atomic Bombs is still not classified as war crime or crime against humanity. Thus it’s not about justice.
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And again... Pro russian whataboutism in it's full glory.

A: russian federation invaded Ukraine. It must be stopped right now!
B: Let's be quiet.
A: Free World should rise up and give Ukraine arms!
B: It's not in our interests angering the bear.
A: USA, please, help to protect democratic values and freedom!
B: But... USA attacked Japan not so long ago.
:facepalm:
 
____no5 said:
If it's not about justice, then give me a reward. We already gave arms tons of them. We did sanctions. Prices go up and next winter people will suffer back home. We did our part. What exactly is the reward for us European people to further escalate it? As I said what makes me worry is that simple people like us with nothing to gain from this story have a blind anger and don’t see the risks of what they wish for.
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There are no rewards for anyone if a tyrant wins. And I would take the risk (or support the taking of the risk) for the sake of standing up to tyranny.
Perun said:
Not leaving a nation alone while its civilians are slaughtered on the streets by an army that invaded unprovoked and against any sort of international law.
If we don't help them now, then who's going to help us if that ever happens to us?
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This.
 
I’m curious to see what will happen here on the 9th of May. Russians’ Victory Day parade is not allowed this year, as all gatherings that support Russian aggression have been banned. Will provocateurs still turn up? One of the leaders of pro-Russian activism was expelled from Estonia as a preventive measure.
 
I’ve just listened to intercepted phone calls of Russians bragging to their families about the torture techniques they use on Ukrainians.

There is no way back for Russia from this. They are tainted for generations
 
You guys are morally right, but IMO you underestimate the domestic political pressure the Ukrainian refugees generate in our respective Western countries. So many idiots already vote Trump, AfD, Le Pen, Wilders, Orban...
 
Boroking said:
I’ve just listened to intercepted phone calls of Russians bragging to their families about the torture techniques they use on Ukrainians.

There is no way back for Russia from this. They are tainted for generations
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I listened to it too. It's horrible. 'Liberators and denazificators' :facepalm:
 
Boroking said:
There is no way back for Russia from this. They are tainted for generations
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They are not tainted for generations. Well, they will be in the eyes of people like you and me, but world governments will let them back in as soon as Putin is dead or ousted from power. Their resources are needed and the biggest country in the world can't just be isolated as simply as North Korea. They will be given a helping hand when Putin is gone to prevent someone even worse using the isolation from the West to get into power. I mean Putin is pretty bad, but he's calculated evil. Imagine some unhinged evil, say Russian version of Trump getting into power in Russia and using those nukes.
 
Boroking said:
I’ve just listened to intercepted phone calls of Russians bragging to their families about the torture techniques they use on Ukrainians.

There is no way back for Russia from this. They are tainted for generations
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The astonishing thing is how Russian mothers support the atrocities that their sons commit. In the phone call, the mother’s reponse was that she would do the same if she were in that position.
 
@Boroking
Tainted for generations. Maybe. Maybe not. Look at what Germans did during WWII. Or what Japanese did. Serbs were one of the few counties (many if not most, went along) to do real resistance to Nazis. Look at them. Russians lost millions and they were the ones to really beat them. Look at them. World hated Russia the moment WWII was finished. And they lost millions to the cause. Tainted for Generations? It depends, all is relative in Geopolitics, there’s no sacred values or holy aliances, just interests, interests and interests.
 
What worries me the most is that recently Russia have publicly stated their objectives to take all the coastline of Ukraine. There are some interconnecting issues here:
  1. Considering what happened to Mariupol, how Odessa would fall without avoiding a major blood tax?
  2. Considering what happened to Kiev how is possible to take Odessa without completely destroying it? And sure as hell, there’s no meaning of destroying Odessa since there are is no money to rebuilding it.
  3. Considering that Odessa would (likely) not fall for ages, we are risking a major escalation.
  4. And since the objective is declared publicly and we are talking Putin here, how it would be possible to take it back?
Or it’s something else: they’re just bluffing and play this card to have something to ”loose” during negotiations later. (i.e. look how we are retreated from our stated goals etc.)
 
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