Russia invades Ukraine

bearfan said:
Russian terms ... go fuck yourself would be an appropriate response
Click to expand...
I could see them agreeing to a couple of them, honestly, to avoid more bloodshed. There is no way they would allow themselves to be demilitarized though. Putin has shown why they need a well equipped and large army.
 
Yax said:
I could see them agreeing to a couple of them, honestly, to avoid more bloodshed. There is no way they would allow themselves to be demilitarized though. Putin has shown why they need a well equipped and large army.
Click to expand...
I don't see really any of them being agreed to at this point beyond maybe letting some of the separatist areas go
 
bearfan said:
I don't see really any of them being agreed to at this point beyond maybe letting some of the separatist areas go
Click to expand...
That's 2/4 of the demands. The last part is to stay out of NATO and write that into the constitution (which Ukraine sort of opened up to over a week ago). Not that these are acceptable terms in any way, don't get me wrong.
 
I guess the other factor is whatever the terms are, how much trust do they have that the Russians will keep their end of the bargain
 
Considering the war crimes, broken promises of cease fire, humanitarian corridors leading to Russia and Belarus, I don't think there is any room for trust regarding any demilitarization. The atrocities Russia is committing speak for themselves.
 
I am surprised to see all the reactions to Russia's invasion of Ukraine all over the internet.

When the overpowered USA invades or bombs the weak middle east (because they somehow felt the threat of Irak from 10000km away) people were generally not happy but their reactions were more of a "Oh no! Anyway..." meme type of reaction. Now that Russia invades a soon-to-be-Western/NATO country at it's border, the world goes crazy.

I am not saying that it's OK that Ukrainian people to suffer from this war, or that they do not deserve all the support whether it is material or the "thoughts and prayers" support. All I am saying is that I am surprised, especially considering some wars in the middle east were way more brutal than what is happening right now in Ukrain.

Is the west actively fuelling this compain of ruining Russia's image? And to make it clear again, I know that what Russia is doing is not OK, but I just don't remember this amount of hate on the West when they start wars.
 
Yax said:
Considering the war crimes, broken promises of cease fire, humanitarian corridors leading to Russia and Belarus, I don't think there is any room for trust regarding any demilitarization. The atrocities Russia is committing speak for themselves.
Click to expand...
There was the agreement as well after the USSR if the Ukrainians gave up the nukes they would not be invaded .. how many times has that been broken (3 or 4) .. now, Crimea, separatist regions (maybe not invaded, but at least armed by Russia)
 
giratina said:
I am surprised to see all the reactions to Russia's invasion of Ukraine all over the internet.

When the overpowered USA invades or bombs the weak middle east (because they somehow felt the threat of Irak from 10000km away) people were generally not happy but their reactions were more of a "Oh no! Anyway..." meme type of reaction. Now that Russia invades a soon-to-be-Western/NATO country at it's border, the world goes crazy.

I am not saying that it's OK that Ukrainian people to suffer from this war, or that they do not deserve all the support whether it is material or the "thoughts and prayers" support. All I am saying is that I am surprised, especially considering some wars in the middle east were way more brutal than what is happening right now in Ukrain.

Is the west actively fuelling this compain of ruining Russia's image? And to make it clear again, I know that what Russia is doing is not OK, but I just don't remember this amount of hate on the West when they start wars.
Click to expand...

First off, what's the deal with the whatsaboutism here? Second, there was a lot of public anger over the Iraq invasion and still is today. Third, this is Russia invading a democracy in a Hitler-esque fashion with the end goal of destroying a state and in itself unlike the military intervention in say, Libya which was an uprising in the end supported by the west. I'm not going to get into the Yugoslavia war too much, I don't know enough and there are members here from the area, but there was an actual genocide going on (although Putin is trying to spin a similar narrative regarding Donbass), the fallout was utterly terrible and the hate for the US is quite understandable in its aftermath. But it's not a fair comparison. I have a hard time with you somewhat equating the such.
 
Last edited:
giratina said:
I am surprised to see all the reactions to Russia's invasion of Ukraine all over the internet.

When the overpowered USA invades or bombs the weak middle east (because they somehow felt the threat of Irak from 10000km away) people were generally not happy but their reactions were more of a "Oh no! Anyway..." meme type of reaction. Now that Russia invades a soon-to-be-Western/NATO country at it's border, the world goes crazy.

I am not saying that it's OK that Ukrainian people to suffer from this war, or that they do not deserve all the support whether it is material or the "thoughts and prayers" support. All I am saying is that I am surprised, especially considering some wars in the middle east were way more brutal than what is happening right now in Ukrain.

Is the west actively fuelling this compain of ruining Russia's image? And to make it clear again, I know that what Russia is doing is not OK, but I just don't remember this amount of hate on the West when they start wars.
Click to expand...

This is an apple:

latest


This is an orange:

orange-fruit-isolated-on-a-white-background-picture-id494037460


And this is the largest anti-war protest in history, in New York City, in 2003 against the American invasion of Iraq:

5a8609d12000002d00eaf02c.jpeg
 
Please enlighten me, I do not understand how it is apple vs orange not a fair comparaison.

Also I am African and I have no links to any recent war involving the West or Middle East, I am not just trying to say something controversal. I genuinely think of every invasion in a similar way.
 
whataboutism to me is clear pro russian indicator. russian propaganda machine uses this method all the time.
 
giratina said:
Please enlighten me, I do not understand how it is apple vs orange not a fair comparaison.

Also I am African and I have no links to any recent war involving the West or Middle East, I am not just trying to say something controversal. I genuinely think of every invasion in a similar way.
Click to expand...

Did you see the last picture I posted? Back in 2002/2003, there was an absolutely unprecedented public opposition to the US invasion of Iraq in most western countries. I was there. I joined many of the protests. There were up to a million people on the streets on some occasions. The difference? A lot of these protests came from countries that were on the side of the invader. People didn't want this war, and we made this clear before the first bomb was even dropped. It's not fair to cry "hypocrisy!" if the majority of the people living in western countries tried to prevent this war but were powerless to stop it. So does that mean we're not allowed to be shocked by the sudden, literally over-night reappearance of open war in Europe after decades of us thinking this sort of thing was history? And we're not allowed to be terrified by the sudden realisation that there is nothing we, as ordinary people, can do about it? Just because there are other wars too?
 
Everything Perun said is true. The only reason I wasn't marching is because I lived in a town of less than 10,000 and no way to get to the protests. I wrote my MP and argued aggressively that we needed to stay out of the Iraq War, which my country did. The breaking of Iraq for no reason is horrible, it was exhausting, and the average westerner fought it as hard as they could without couping the government.

It eventually did grind down into a "well there's a war in Iraq and Afghanistan, right" thing, and should the invasion of Ukraine move to a long bloody occupation, it'll be the same there as well in the end, mark my words on that. It is also irrelevant, because in Iraq, US and Russian interests were not directly juxtaposed, whereas in Ukraine - they are.

Why do you think the USA didn't throw up a no-fly zone in Syria? Because Bashir al-Assad is linked to Putin, and it could escalate the conflict dramatically.

All wars are bad, all invasions are bad, and what stinks is that there are people dying in Ukraine right now, and in a dozen other spots around the world, but the one where we could see nuclear powers butt heads are the scariest ones.
 
Perun said:
Did you see the last picture I posted? Back in 2002/2003, there was an absolutely unprecedented public opposition to the US invasion of Iraq in most western countries. I was there. I joined many of the protests. There were up to a million people on the streets on some occasions. The difference? A lot of these protests came from countries that were on the side of the invader. People didn't want this war, and we made this clear before the first bomb was even dropped. It's not fair to cry "hypocrisy!" if the majority of the people living in western countries tried to prevent this war but were powerless to stop it. So does that mean we're not allowed to be shocked by the sudden, literally over-night reappearance of open war in Europe after decades of us thinking this sort of thing was history? And we're not allowed to be terrified by the sudden realisation that there is nothing we, as ordinary people, can do about it? Just because there are other wars too?
Click to expand...

I understand what you are saying, Indeed people were protesting against Irak war in USA back then, and today Russians are protesting against Ukraine war, so it's almost the same in this aspect. And also I do agree that you are allowed to be shocked by the sudden war in Europe, war is very bad.

I still see some differences when I think in term of agressor country vs victim country, some of them are :

1) On the internet, everybody is glorifying the Ukrainians who are fighting Russia back and calling them Heroes and supporting them in fighting Russians (And to make it clear I agree that they should fight back and not give their homes for free). On the contrary, I saw no such things for Irak people when they manage to kill American soldiers or destroy their vehicles. If anything, they probably were called terrorists, I am not sure tho. Why didn't the western people support (with thoughts and prayers at least) the Irak people in fighting back the Americans ? Why didn't they call them Heroes ?

2) Everybody is making Putin look like a super villain almost on the same level as Hitler and saying that he should be removed / exciled / jailed, but when George Bush did the same people were much more forgiving (I know he is still hated to this day, but not to the same level as Putin), they even elected him again in 2004. I understand that Putin is a dictator, and Bush was not, but still, it seems strange to me.

3) People are almost not allowed to say that they support Russia, I have seen on LinkedIn some Indian CEO or executive sayting that he supports Russia and Putin, because when the West turned against India, Russia supported India. I have seen people calling him out in the comments saying that this is disgraceful (some people disagreed with him respectfully tho). Did people who supported Bush or USA back then receive the same amount of criticism ? As far as I know, No.

Do you really think that the threatment of agressor and victim county is the same in both cases ?
 
LooseCannon said:
All wars are bad, all invasions are bad, and what stinks is that there are people dying in Ukraine right now, and in a dozen other spots around the world, but the one where we could see nuclear powers butt heads are the scariest ones.
Click to expand...
This one, at least, is a good argument in my opinion.
 
You have already been showered in them yet keep resorting to whataboutism. Why does everybody hate Hitler so much? Look at the 30 year war in the 17th century. Look at Carolus Rex. That is the essence of your argument and it is tiresome. In the spirit of your whataboutism I contributed with a straw man argument. You are welcome.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top