Official Hockey discussion thread
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GuineaPig
Ancient Mariner
He didn't have his rookie season until he was 26.
When you're talking about great goaltenders, how are you supposed to gauge it? Save percentage? Goals against average? Number of times winning major trophies?
In the modern era, Hasek has won 6 Vezinas (nearest competitor: Brodeur with 4) and 2 Harts (José Theodore is the only other goalie to win it in the modern era). He leads all goalies in career GAA and is the all-time leader for save percentage. He was the greatest clutch goalie of all time. And he did most of this while playing for sub-par teams, something no other 'greats' can claim.
I agree it's debatable about where to place Hasek in posterity. It's especially hard to gauge the modern era vs. times bygone. But for me, it comes down to this: when it came to the ability to single-handedly dominate a game, there was Gretzky, and then there was Hasek.
When you're talking about great goaltenders, how are you supposed to gauge it? Save percentage? Goals against average? Number of times winning major trophies?
In the modern era, Hasek has won 6 Vezinas (nearest competitor: Brodeur with 4) and 2 Harts (José Theodore is the only other goalie to win it in the modern era). He leads all goalies in career GAA and is the all-time leader for save percentage. He was the greatest clutch goalie of all time. And he did most of this while playing for sub-par teams, something no other 'greats' can claim.
I agree it's debatable about where to place Hasek in posterity. It's especially hard to gauge the modern era vs. times bygone. But for me, it comes down to this: when it came to the ability to single-handedly dominate a game, there was Gretzky, and then there was Hasek.
Sorry, GP. I gotta go with Bobby Orr.
Bobby Orr owned the 1970s like 99 did the 80s. Nobody will ever touch his +/- and no defenseman will ever win the Art Ross. 2 Conn Smythes too - that's more than either Hasek or Gretzky had.
When it comes to clutch goalies, I'll agree that Hasek was a great regular season goalie. But neither he nor Brodeur is the money goalie - that is and always will be numero trente-trois, Patrick Roy. 3 Conn Smythes, more than anyone else, and he lifted the Cup 4 times and only once on a team that was truly dominant (1996 Avs).
Is Hasek one of the great goaltenders of all time? Of course. Is he the greatest? No.
Bobby Orr owned the 1970s like 99 did the 80s. Nobody will ever touch his +/- and no defenseman will ever win the Art Ross. 2 Conn Smythes too - that's more than either Hasek or Gretzky had.
When it comes to clutch goalies, I'll agree that Hasek was a great regular season goalie. But neither he nor Brodeur is the money goalie - that is and always will be numero trente-trois, Patrick Roy. 3 Conn Smythes, more than anyone else, and he lifted the Cup 4 times and only once on a team that was truly dominant (1996 Avs).
Is Hasek one of the great goaltenders of all time? Of course. Is he the greatest? No.
GuineaPig
Ancient Mariner
I agree it's debatable. Probably part of it is that I've never really seen Bobby play; I agree he is the best defenceman of all time, but he still played on some pretty solid Bruins teams. The reason I give the edge to Hasek is simply that imo, a goalie can control a game more than a defenceman, and that's what the Dominator did.
And I think you're wrong about Roy. The common consensus is that he is the clutch goalie, but if you look at the stats...
SV%
Hasek - .925
Roy - 0.918
GAA
Hasek - 2.02
Roy - 2.3
Now there's obviously more to it than that, so here's a more exhaustive breakdown of goalie performance in clutch situations:
http://brodeurisafraud.blogspot.com/200 ... lutch.html
EDiT: Also, Hasek has the best extended goalie performance ever on his resumé.
And I think you're wrong about Roy. The common consensus is that he is the clutch goalie, but if you look at the stats...
SV%
Hasek - .925
Roy - 0.918
GAA
Hasek - 2.02
Roy - 2.3
Now there's obviously more to it than that, so here's a more exhaustive breakdown of goalie performance in clutch situations:
http://brodeurisafraud.blogspot.com/200 ... lutch.html
EDiT: Also, Hasek has the best extended goalie performance ever on his resumé.
GuineaPig said:
I think Hasek was the best goalie I've ever seen and the best player to ever wear the Sabres uniform.
I'd rank him behind only Gretzky and Orr in terms of the most dominant players I've ever seen.
But Onhell was asking about what name to put on his Sabres jersey and I think there are better choices because there were a few times he pulled the chute on the team.
There were a few phantom injuries along the way, and in the end he demanded a trade and manipulated that trade to favour Detroit.
I really have no basis for this, but I've always kind of felt that if Hasek got along better with the media or was as entertaining as somelike like a Roy, he would be in more of the GGOAT conversations. He's got numbers to put him in the same conversation as Roy, if not ahead of him. The year he played here (in Ottawa), they always seemed to be questioning his heart on the radio, or mocking his accent, or wondering when he was going to get a phantom injury again (turns out, the Olympics took care of that!)
On the ice, he was unlike any other goalie I've ever seen though. He always seemed to make saves that nobody else would have thought possible.
On the ice, he was unlike any other goalie I've ever seen though. He always seemed to make saves that nobody else would have thought possible.
GuineaPig said:
Sure, the stats are going to favour Hasek - he played primarily in the 90s and 2000s, and Roy had 4 years in the 1980s and then the early 90s, before 1995 when Lemaire reinvented hockey. Trap trap trap.
I completely agree that Hasek was a great goalie, but he didn't win the cup with a mediocre team. Roy did - twice. And he won once with a team that was really good, but not great (outduelling the Devils as he did). The team that Hasek took to the finals in Buffalo was pretty good, but it wasn't completely fantastic (2002 Wings). Roy also had the most shutouts in the playoffs of any goaltender. Still does.
It's not a question that has an answer. Would I pick Roy over Hasek? Yes, I would. Because I am a huge Habs fan, because Roy was my favourite player, and I watched him like a hawk from the time I started watching hockey.
But would I bet on Roy in a hypothetical competition, all things being equal, to see who could win?
No.
It's close. It's really fucking close.
Back to present day: did you see Timmy T's stats? 6-0-0, 3 SO, .984%, 0.50 GAA.
No typos.
Yeah yeah yeah.
Onhell
Infinite Dreamer
Back to present day: did you see Timmy T's stats? 6-0-0, 3 SO, .984%, 0.50 GAA.
No typos.
[/quote]
That is AMAZING, my B's are back in town!
Back to the debate. Greatest PLAYER I still say Orr, greatest GOALIE... Roy over Brodeur, any day. Hasek was BRILLIANT in the mid 90's, but went downhill quick IMO with constant injuries, whether real or not. I will never forget the lunging save he made with his blocker (after losing his stick)... flabbergasted.
But there were many brilliant goalies in the 90s, many without "the numbers" Cujo and Potvin to name two. Eddie Belfour was really good too. in the early 90's it was Belfour vs. Roy as far as I'm concerned.
No typos.
[/quote]
That is AMAZING, my B's are back in town!
Back to the debate. Greatest PLAYER I still say Orr, greatest GOALIE... Roy over Brodeur, any day. Hasek was BRILLIANT in the mid 90's, but went downhill quick IMO with constant injuries, whether real or not. I will never forget the lunging save he made with his blocker (after losing his stick)... flabbergasted.
But there were many brilliant goalies in the 90s, many without "the numbers" Cujo and Potvin to name two. Eddie Belfour was really good too. in the early 90's it was Belfour vs. Roy as far as I'm concerned.
GuineaPig
Ancient Mariner
I'd agree about Belfour. Eddie the Eagle gets seriously underrated.
As for Hasek going downhill, you have to remember:
a. He was 41 when he played with Ottawa (41!)
b. He still posted great numbers: http://www.coppernblue.com/2009/7/28/96 ... he-lockout
I agree Roy is superior to Brodeur, but Hasek is better than both. My rankings of modern goalies go a little something like this:
1. Hasek
2. Roy
3. Belfour
4. Cujo
5. Brodeur
As for Hasek going downhill, you have to remember:
a. He was 41 when he played with Ottawa (41!)
b. He still posted great numbers: http://www.coppernblue.com/2009/7/28/96 ... he-lockout
I agree Roy is superior to Brodeur, but Hasek is better than both. My rankings of modern goalies go a little something like this:
1. Hasek
2. Roy
3. Belfour
4. Cujo
5. Brodeur
I find myself wondering what we'd see if Hasek had started playing in 1980 instead of 1990, how good he would have been.
And of course Eddie the Eagle was great - the best goaltender of all time was his first goaltending coach. Vladislav Tretiak.
And of course Eddie the Eagle was great - the best goaltender of all time was his first goaltending coach. Vladislav Tretiak.
Well, he didn't learn much from Tretiak - Hasek is pretty well uncoachable. You just had to trust him to be amazing, and that trust was rarely misplaced.
Onhell
Infinite Dreamer
GuineaPig said:
I like your rankings. Also, you mentioned earlier that Hasek was a rookie at 26. That isn't rare for goalies. Or at least it wasn't until the recent crop of Fleurys and Prices... Belfour also played until 40 (and is STILL playing somewhere in Europe.) Goalies have shorter careers than forwards, usually. Starting at 24-26 and ending a decade later if not sooner. Forwards start between 18-20 and can potentially play until their late 30s. MOST players regardless of position usually have an 8 year career though.