Official Hockey discussion thread

I think Bure should absolutely get in.  My criteria for a Hall of Famer is simple: was he, for a given period of time (let's say at least 5 years), the best or near best at his position?  Absolutely.  Bure was one of the most deadly snipers for decidedly less than great teams.  In every season (5) where he played 65+ games, he scored at least 50 goals, even in the height of the dead puck era and without a strong supporting cast.  I don't think Selanne ever reached a peak (perhaps excepting his rookie year, but that season was also ridiculously inflationary with regards to scoring; he was 5th in scoring with 132 points, 28 behind the leader) as high as Bure.
 
I'm not saying he doesn't deserve to get in. I'm just saying that playing a long career is helpful to a player as well. Then there's the international aspect to his game as well. Selanne had an incredible rookie season with lots of inflated stats around, but he also played through a brutal knee for a long time that hampered his production. He was the best at his position for at least 5 years as well. Maybe he did not have the same peak as Bure (except for his 3 leading-the-league-in-goals-years, same as Bure), but he was better over a longer period of time.

Winning hardware counts too.
Norris nominations are in. Lidstrom, Weber, Chara. Not sure who I'd vote for. Lidas has tons of points but was -2. Still, he is going to get the "Lidstrom" vote. Chara had the best +/-, and Weber was in between the two.

I prefer Weber, but Chara probably helped Tim Thomas more than Weber helped Rinne, so...Chara.
 
Selanne is definitely a first ballot hall of famer. Bure, I think he should get in. Even though he had a short career, he was definitely a top notched player.
Amazingly when Eric Lindros retired, Bobby Clarke said he should in.

Selanne: 1,370 career games. 1419 career points. Comes out to 1.03 ppg. Also a career +98
Bure:      766 career games.  849 career points. Comes out to 1.1 ppg. Also a career +42

Well according to stats, Bure scored more points per game than Selanne, but Selanne appears to be better defensively.

Given a longer playing career and a better plus rating, the edge goes to Teemu.
 
That's a great comparison. Clearly Bure should be in. That he's not is mostly politics IMO.

Ed Belfour is up this year. He's a cert. After that? Trevor Linden? Darian Hatcher? Yeahhhhh. A guy like Bure might get nominated this year for sure.
 
If Linden is gonna get in, then the Russian Rocket definitely should get in. Not playing 1000 games might hurt him getting in. It took along time and alot of politicking from the Great One himself to get Glenn Anderson in.
 
Do you think his goaltending was suspect in the 1980s? Obviously he rode a hot team, but he did win a Vezina and 2 Canada Cups. And then there's his 5 Cup rings. I'm curious if you think he was outside of that top 5 bracket more than a few times between 83 and 89.
 
"He rode a hot team" is massively underrating the Oilers.  He played behind what was comparatively the strongest team since the Original Six teams, and a team whose defence has long been unfairly maligned.

I don't know as much about '80s goalies; simply put, a lot of them flat out sucked, and those that adopted the butterfly and looked comparatively better often failed in their old age as their poor fundamentals were revealed.  Expansion both among teams and of talent from Europe meant you had a lot of weak teams, and some titanic dynasties.  See this post http://brodeurisafraud.blogspot.com/200 ... 1980s.html for an exploration of the topic.  I'd pick at the very least though, Roy and Vanbiesbrouck.
 
I am not sure Fuhr statistically belonged in the Hall of Fame. But there were times he was left alone in the net becuase Paul Coffey would be  joining the rush. The reasons goaltending has gotten better is a combination of equipment that is twice as large and half as light, Goaltenders being larger in size and the goaltenders being more athletic than in the 80's.

Glenn Anderson: Played 1354 career games, scored 1313 points. 0.96 ppg. I don't think I should count his +/- rating because who was his centerman, but it is an astounding + 201.

The data on Fuhr's save % is incomplete, but in the 80's .870% was considered good, 0.890% great. 1018 career games, 3.12 GAA. I think he maybe he could squeaked in.
 
Nigel Tufnel said:
His mind is a little fucked up. He's a great REGULAR SEASON goaltender, but he can't hack it during the playoffs
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If they end up losing this series (which I really hope they do), especially if the Hawks put in a ton of goals on game 7, you have to wonder about his future in Vancouver (along with a lot of people there), for a team that had as many point as they did in the regular season, they wheels have come off very quickly.  2 blow outs, and a goalie change from game 6
 
Nigel Tufnel said:
His mind is a little fucked up. He's a great REGULAR SEASON goaltender, but he can't hack it during the playoffs
Click to expand...

Tell that to his gold medal. He can do it...unsure is whether or not he will.
 
It is always the same shit with Vancouver, good team, good regular season goalie. Playoffs roll along and the good regular season goalie can't hack it. I forget where a read/heard it, but essentially, all Vancouver goalies live in the shadow of Kirk McLean.
ALSO. I remember watching the Salt Lake Games and Luongo getting criticized for his weak glove side... watching this series I am having flashbacks to that... it's been nearly a decade and the dude still has a suspect glove side.
 
Nigel Tufnel said:
I am not sure Fuhr statistically belonged in the Hall of Fame. But there were times he was left alone in the net becuase Paul Coffey would be  joining the rush. The reasons goaltending has gotten better is a combination of equipment that is twice as large and half as light, Goaltenders being larger in size and the goaltenders being more athletic than in the 80's.

The data on Fuhr's save % is incomplete, but in the 80's .870% was considered good, 0.890% great. 1018 career games, 3.12 GAA. I think he maybe he could squeaked in.
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Fuhr was dead average for his career in terms of save percentage (0.887, with a league average of 0.887 during that time), with much of his career spent behind strong defensive teams like the Oilers and the Blues.  You shouldn't get into the Hockey Hall of Fame by being average. 
 
Yes, Luongo does have the gold medal, but he did'nt exactly shut down any teams during the Tourney.  And we all know the Stanley Cup is a much harder thing to win than the Gold. Plus there was a bit of a goaltender issue for team Canada between Luongo and Brodeur.

I am sure Luongo could do it, but he's been in this situation before and has yet to. I believe game 7 is going to define him as a big game goalie or not.
 
Nigel Tufnel said:
Yes, Luongo does have the gold medal, but he did'nt exactly shut down any teams during the Tourney.  And we all know the Stanley Cup is a much harder thing to win than the Gold. Plus there was a bit of a goaltender issue for team Canada between Luongo and Brodeur.

I am sure Luongo could do it, but he's been in this situation before and has yet to. I believe game 7 is going to define him as a big game goalie or not.
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Here's a question for you: there are two goalies in this year's playoffs, who've played behind rosters with strong defence and superstars.  They have identical stats and identical records so far this year.  Both have played poorly in big game situations in the past.  But one's considered "clutch", and the other a "choker", even though the latter has played better overall in his playoff career, and much better in his regular season career.  Which one's which?
 
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