Official Hockey discussion thread

So, it sounds like the NHL and the NFL are hand in hand with head injuries. Which is good- too many good players end up basket cases at 50 yrs old.
 
I don't think the Ex NHL players are basket cases. Looki at the players from the 70's back that did'nt wear helmets and the goaltenders that did'nt wear masks. They may have looked a little mangled with crooked noses, scars and missing teeth, but I think they are mentally sharp. The game has changed so much though, it is much faster than it ever has been and the new generation hard plastic elbow pads are a dangerous combination. Plus I think there is a general lack of respect than there was 20 years ago. I think the instigator rule is letting chumps like Cooke, Ruutu, Downey and Avery do the shit they do with impunity from the other players. Even the leaders on your own team would hold you accountable for stupid shit because it jeapordizes the team as a whole.
 
So how about that Goldwater Institute? Finally, American conservatives are doing something for me :D
 
LooseCannon said:
So how about that Goldwater Institute? Finally, American conservatives are doing something for me :D
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The one thing I applaud teabaggers for. So what if Glendale wants the Coyotes to stay? Where was Glendale when the team sucked ass? Where were the fans? Exactly. The only reason the city and fans are doing a big hoopla is because they finally have a good coach and a decent cast of characters... for now.

I propose to move the team to Seattle. They stay in the West only modifying the divisions slightly and players still make U.S dollars. Or here's an idea... MOVE BACK TO CANADA. Winnipeg, Quebec, Halifax, who cares... Canada deserves another team.
 
You know what? Even with a great cast of characters, an Adams-winning coach, and a decent chance of winning a round in the playoffs, Phoenix is still projected to lose $40 million dollars this year.

Phoenix just isn't a hockey town. I wish they were, not because I don't want the Jets back, but because it would be wonderful to expose the game in such a place. But...the experiment has failed.
 
Well, had they been placed IN Phoenix, rather than inconvenient Glendale, they might have done well. At least that is what the local population cites as the problem. Nobody wants to bother going on the interstate, then the 202 loop for "a stupid hockey game." I've driven over 2 hours for said stupid game on a couple of occasions... But Arizona's overwhelming retiree, horseback riding, immigrant smuggling population doesn't care about their Football team, much less their hockey team.

L.A worked, because of Gretzky, Dallas survived because Dallas loves their sports. The Panthers get plenty of Snowbirds, but Tampa, Phoenix, San Jose and the Ducks only get fair weather fans... if that.

Agreed, experiment failed, move them.
 
I can think of so many places that'd do great with a hockey team. Imagine the rivalry a Seattle club would have with Vancouver? They'd sell out their games based on Vancouver fans alone! Winnipeg is NHL ready, so is Hamilton. Kansas City wants to try again with a club; I don't think it'll work, but hey, why not toss the dice there instead of rolling with bums in Glendale. Houston has a successful AHL team, Quebec wants to build a new arena, and even Halifax would sell out, but they'd need an arena too.

I dunno. Would you rather sell 10,000 tickets a night in Halifax at $150/pop, or 4000 tickets at $15 a pop?
 
My brother and I always bought the 25 dollar nose bleed section lol. It was like watching legos play hockey of how small the players looked.

Canadian cities, no matter how small, will always sellout. The idea that 20,000 people of your 5 million will attend a hockey game based on population alone is the most moronic idea ever.
 
So I was talking to my friend from Vancouver about the 'Yotes situation and he agreed Halifax would be a good place for a team and suggested the name, "Halifax Vikings." I told him it was a step up from "Wild" or "Predators". He asked if I had a better suggestion and I said there is always room for another name for "Canadian" since we have the "Canucks" and the "Canadiens". But told him "Lumberjacks" or "Beavers" would be better :D
 
One of the most overblown stories of the year: Carey Price's turnaround.  Yes, he's played very well this season.  Yes, he appears much more poised and mature.  But don't call him a viable Hart, let alone Vezina, candidate.
 
Why not? I'm curious as to why you don't think he should be either, not because I necessarily support Carey in those things.
 
LooseCannon said:
Why not? I'm curious as to why you don't think he should be either, not because I necessarily support Carey in those things.
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I think it's the typical confusion of more games played = better goalie syndrome.  I think that any argument people are making focuses around him leading the league in wins, which is misleading imo.  His win % isn't as good compared to some of the other candidates.  And it's not like he has to start every game; Auld is a more than capable backup (who has identical stats).  He'd probably be the MVP of the Canadiens, but I don't think he is nearly as valuable as others. 

There's only one guy who should win the Vezina this year.  It's not even close.  Thomas is on pace to tie Dominik Hasek in terms of best sv % in a single season (though Hasek's will still be better era-adjusted), and has been nothing short of remarkable this year.

After that, I'd pick Hiller.  He's played very well this year, for a bubble team whose team has a porous defence, and outside of the last couple games with Emery have not been able to win without him.

After that, Rinne.  He's got a much better D corps in front of him than the either two, but he's still played very well on a team that has difficulty generating offence.

I think there's a fairly large gulf between Thomas and the rest, then another gulf between Rinne and the next tier (Luongo, Lundqvist, and Price).


Anyways, I think that those who tout Price for the Vezina are a bit misguided.  He's having a great year, but the thing is, the number of "great" goalies this year are far from small: There are 10 goalies with more than 25 games played (11 as soon as Varlamov gets his next) with save percentages at 0.920 or higher.  I don't think a solid argument can be made for Price that would distinguish him from the rest of the pack.  I suppose you could point to him being the logical MVP of his team, or the losses suffered by the Montréal blue line this year, but I think both are result of the depth of the Montréal roster rather than any superhuman play on the part of Price.
 
It all depends on how you think the voting should be done. Like Marty Brodeur said - you have to be in the top 5 or 10 in all four categories. Then there's the subjective aspect, especially with the stretch run - if you falter down the stretch, you will lose some votes. On top of that, there's whether or not you make the playoffs.

For the record, I agree that it should be Thomas, providing Timmy T doesn't collapse in his last 10 games. If he does, I prefer he collapses tonight :D. But his stretch run has been less than impressive.

As we've already discussed, I don't think statistics is everything, but Thomas has had another amazing year, and as of right now deserves the Vezina.

When it comes to Hart consideration, however, I think Carey absolutely does deserve consideration. Auld has similar statistics, but he plays very few games against inferior competition; Carey gets the big starts. If he were, say, a quarter point GAA higher, Montreal is out of the playoffs. I watch the team a lot, and I can assure you that he's been the guy all year. Without him? There's no playoffs in Montreal. If the definition of MVP is actually "the player judged most valuable to his team", then I think it is Carey Price.

However, Dan Sedin will win.
 
LooseCannon said:
It all depends on how you think the voting should be done. Like Marty Brodeur said - you have to be in the top 5 or 10 in all four categories. Then there's the subjective aspect, especially with the stretch run - if you falter down the stretch, you will lose some votes. On top of that, there's whether or not you make the playoffs.

For the record, I agree that it should be Thomas, providing Timmy T doesn't collapse in his last 10 games. If he does, I prefer he collapses tonight :D. But his stretch run has been less than impressive.

As we've already discussed, I don't think statistics is everything, but Thomas has had another amazing year, and as of right now deserves the Vezina.

When it comes to Hart consideration, however, I think Carey absolutely does deserve consideration. Auld has similar statistics, but he plays very few games against inferior competition; Carey gets the big starts. If he were, say, a quarter point GAA higher, Montreal is out of the playoffs. I watch the team a lot, and I can assure you that he's been the guy all year. Without him? There's no playoffs in Montreal. If the definition of MVP is actually "the player judged most valuable to his team", then I think it is Carey Price.

However, Dan Sedin will win.
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But this is also true of Hiller, Quick, Lundqvist, Varlamov/Neuvirth, Rinne... it's hardly a unique situation.  I think there's somewhat of an increased spotlight on him because of his past performance and the fact that he's playing in Montréal, and as a result his play, which has been very good, has been elevated past those who have played just as well with just as much on the line.

When you're gauging an MVP for a team, ostensibly the most important metric is how valuable the performance it is.  Compare Hiller's and Rinne's stats compared to their backups and Price's:

Jonas Hiller: 0.925 sv %, 2.50 GAA
Backups: 0.896 sv %, 3.08 GAA

Pekka Rinne: 0.930 sv %, 2.07 GAA
Backups: 0.913 sv %, 2.64 GAA

Carey Price: 0.922 sv %, 0.235 GAA
Backups: 0.922 sv %, 0.239 GAA

Look at how comparatively better Rinne and Hiller are than their back-ups.  Both play for teams in the bottom half for goal scoring (and Nashville is 25th).  Although Auld's statistics are drawn from only 13 games, and thus are somewhat hard to draw conclusions from, he's played just as well as Price.  You say that if Price allowed 0.25 goals more each game, Montréal would be out of the playoffs, and you're likely correct (2.66GF/2.49GA).  But every time Hiller and Rinne don't play for their respective teams, that is exactly what happens... times two.  How can you argue they're not more valuable?
 
How about the dark horse for the Vezina, Henrik Lunqvist. 2.31 GAA and .922 SV % are pretty good numbers. Plus he has 32 wins and 10 shutouts, with 16 one goal game victories. He is the only reason the Rangers have a chance at the playoffs.
 
In order to do that, you'd have to pull out who played against what team, and what the records are.

Hiller missed a ton of time. Yes, his backups were much worse, but they also had longer exposure against better teams, so it's hard to say what happened there. Were his backups that much worse, or did they just come up against 10 games agains San Jose, Vancouver, Detroit?

As for Pekka Rinne, I'll consider him if the Preds make the playoffs. For Carey, the point is he carried the workload, and didn't give Auld a chance to screw up too hard, because he played fantastic. Yes, Auld has played well, but he hasn't been tested much. I agree that Carey's rehabilitation makes for a big story, but those other teams do not put all their reliance on Hiller/Rinne. Anaheim got into the playoff race when Hiller was hurt - he's just getting off IR now - due to Getzlaf, Perry, Ryan, and a huge part to Selanne (how the fuck does he do it?!). Preds? Preds rely on the Suter/Weber combo to get their team moving, and they have a simply horrible backup.

The point is that the MVP isn't just "the best player on the team", it's "the best player on the team in the league". Swap out Carey Price for a goalie who is even slightly worse, and Montreal's done. In those other situations - especially bubble teams, not teams like the Habs that have been in all season - the goalie doesn't mean as much to the team. This year's Habs lived and died by the blue paint.
 
LooseCannon said:
In order to do that, you'd have to pull out who played against what team, and what the records are.

Hiller missed a ton of time. Yes, his backups were much worse, but they also had longer exposure against better teams, so it's hard to say what happened there. Were his backups that much worse, or did they just come up against 10 games agains San Jose, Vancouver, Detroit?

As for Pekka Rinne, I'll consider him if the Preds make the playoffs. For Carey, the point is he carried the workload, and didn't give Auld a chance to screw up too hard, because he played fantastic. Yes, Auld has played well, but he hasn't been tested much. I agree that Carey's rehabilitation makes for a big story, but those other teams do not put all their reliance on Hiller/Rinne. Anaheim got into the playoff race when Hiller was hurt - he's just getting off IR now - due to Getzlaf, Perry, Ryan, and a huge part to Selanne (how the fuck does he do it?!). Preds? Preds rely on the Suter/Weber combo to get their team moving, and they have a simply horrible backup.

The point is that the MVP isn't just "the best player on the team", it's "the best player on the team in the league". Swap out Carey Price for a goalie who is even slightly worse, and Montreal's done. In those other situations - especially bubble teams, not teams like the Habs that have been in all season - the goalie doesn't mean as much to the team. This year's Habs lived and died by the blue paint.
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Actually, Hiller's backups have had much better goal support than Hiller himself.  His backups combined have a winning record (16-12) despite the terrible stats.  And Rinne's main back-up, Anders Lindback, is far from "terrible".

"Swap out Carey Price for a goalie who is even slightly worse, and Montreal's done."  

But if you swap out "Carey Price" and "Montréal" for Lundqvist and New York, Rinne and Nashville, Hiller and Anaheim, Bryzgalov and Phoenix, Ward and Carolina... the same thing applies.  The situation is hardly unique.  Price just gets undue focus because he plays for Montréal and he's had a comeback season.

And I find it somewhat intellectually lazy that you claim that it's solely due to the team in front of them that Hiller and Rinne have managed to win (while putting up better stats than Price), but Price has carried the Canadiens by himself.
 
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