Most tortured rhyme in a Maiden song?

MrKnickerbocker said:
I think there is always a desire to understand the lyrics, even if they are in another language.
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Always? No. I like a few metal bands which use incomprehensible screams or/and grunts. I like Tierra Santa who sing in Spanish (I don't know well what it is about). Without having the urge to look up the lyrics I can enjoy these bands.
MrKnickerbocker said:
I'm certainly not saying that it is impossible to like something based on melody alone, but that further investigation and understanding of the lyrics should ultimately enhance one's enjoyment of the song.
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I can't deny that. With Maiden, I especially started to appreciate songs like The Apparition and The Alchemist more, after giving my own interpretation to these lyrics.
 
The topic seems to have morphed. I would like to clarify at this point that I didn't start this thread because I think Maiden write bad lyrics, in most cases I think they write very good lyrics. But they do have occasional moments when I just think "Oh, that one was painful" and I thought it might be fun to pick out a few. But some people seem to be really letting off steam here, which actually is quite surprising.

A bad rhyme or a cheesy lyric rarely actually spoils a song for me though. "Hooks in you" for example, while not the most intellectual or mature thing they have ever done, always makes me smile when I hear it. Generally though, a Maiden song is much more than a poem set to a tune.
 
Forostar said:
Always? No. I like a few metal bands which use incomprehensible screams or/and grunts. I like Tierra Santa who sing in Spanish (I don't know well what it is about). Without having the urge to look up the lyrics I can enjoy these bands.
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I find that impossible, it's interesting that you could do that. Without knowing the meaning behind the song, I can never fully commit to liking it. I want to know what the band is trying to say (which is most likely an aspect of my personality as a songwriter). A bad message or just poor lyrical content will completely turn me off from a song, even if the music is great.

As far as music being slightly more important than lyrics, I think this is occasionally true. But the inverse is just as true. Look at Bob Dylan. Genius lyrics, often mediocre (at best) music. In certain cases, lyrics are vastly more important than music. I will agree that in metal, music seems to take a larger priority.

@Black Abyss Babe - We're still talking the lyrics, but yeah, we've gone off on a bit of a tangent. I think that Maiden's lyrics are often great, mostly good, and occasionally quite ridiculous. I think their weakest lyrics come from tracks that are attempting to be funny or edgy, though the occasional clunker (Quest for Fire/Nomad) sometimes leaks into their more serious tracks.
 
As far as music being slightly more important than lyrics, I think this is occasionally true. But the inverse is just as true. Look at Bob Dylan. Genius lyrics, often mediocre (at best) music. In certain cases, lyrics are vastly more important than music.
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Which is why I can't stand Bob Dylan.
 
I usually don't pay attention to lyrics. They have to be really dumb to ruin the song for me. By dumb, I mean generic shitload of crap like last Manowar album.
On the other hand, no matter how much the lyrics are awesome, if the music sucks, I won't listen to the song just because of the lyrics -> Bob Dylan
 
My feelings about lyrics generally echo Perun's in that I am better qualified to to speak to them, than I am music, simply because my knowledge of English is greater than my knowledge of music theory.
I mean I like the whole package, and I like discussing the whole package, but I would like to see more conversation about lyrics on the forum.

Also, a lyric doesn't have to be erudite to be good.
 
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I'm stranded in space,
Lost without trace

"Without trace"? Really? How hard would "With no trace" have been?

We flee from what is not what is will be

...what?!?! :wtf:

...and don't get me starded on Maiden's lazy/questionable use of the word "and" to fill syllables.

 
Almost forgot:

He sees a teardrop from his wife roll down her face, saying grace

...makes me cringe every time.
 
mckindog said:
My feelings about lyrics generally echo Perun's in that I am better qualified to to speak to them, than I am music, simply because my knowledge of English is greater than my knowledge of music theory.
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Well Mckindog. If I may, I disagree a bit here with your take on yourself. I understand the wish to talk about lyrics but recently I have seen some very nice writing on Rush and this wasn't just about lyrics. It wasn't a portrayal of "music theory". It doesn't have to. You emphasized qualities you see in certain parts and I thought it was some of the best reading on music I have seen in a long time. Simply because you used wording I liked. And they gave meaning.

Qualifications my ass. I am an amateur musician at most. Ok, I had music lessons in the past, but I don't think I am qualified more than anyone else to speak about music. People who don't play instruments can also be very interested in and/or have a feeling for what's going on. That comes first, then the wish to talk about it (or not). And people who can play instruments don't always hear things better than non musicians.

And I think it goes further than the talking (which is "only" the end product). There's a process inside that needs to be there before one wants to/can talk about it. Just as with lyrics, music can evoke something. Just with lyrics it's an analysis of what you "import", and next an analysis of what you (dis)like. One needs to be able to distinguish different elements in music. Regardless if you know certain terms or not, this is mainly about the ability to distinguish, in order to enjoy individual patterns, lines, layers, or even instruments in music. The point is: There are no rules saying how to talk about this.

Interpreting texts needs other talents and interests but in the end the "talking about" part isn't a different process.

In short: technically, speaking about music and lyrics needs the same thing: language. Most of us have that language. But before that, it depends on what goes on inside.
MrKnickerbocker said:
I want to know what the band is trying to say (which is most likely an aspect of my personality as a songwriter).
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Often I have that as well, but sometimes music can strike you in such a manner that I can get hooked by it, already in the first second.
To always know the meaning of a song, before one can enjoy a song, sounds a bit forced in my ears. I am rather open to the the flow, so to speak. It goes by itself. Hearing and feeling music is a natural process. Knowing (the meaning of) lyrics and discussing them make the song richer but I think that at least for me they are not the only key to the start of enjoyment. Often they are the final touch of the enjoyment. The cream on the cake. So lyrics are not in all cases an obstruction for me to enjoy the rest.
 
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Er people, I think we need to appreciate that songs can be liked for all kinds of reasons. However not everyone will have the same reasons and that's why we don't all like the same songs. If you are going to write "songs" then lyrics and music are surely both equally important as both are integral to the whole piece? Neither can be neglected in favour of the other.

And no-one says you have to write songs. If you are keen on music but don't really want to bother with lyrics then why not just write instrumental stuff - it's a perfectly acceptable choice. On the other hand, if you are dead stuck on lyrics but find writing music an inconvenience then just write poetry. What's wrong with that? At various times in my life I have been obliged to listen to (read "suffer") the efforts of poets who have decided to set their work to music. They inevitably refrain from calling the finished product a song, possibly because the music tends to be downright bad.

Going back to an earlier post:
MrKnickerbocker said:
If lyrical content was inferior to instrumental music, then every song would simply have nonsense syllables sung in a catchy melody. Better yet, a lead guitar or piano could simply play the vocal melody and we could eliminate the singer altogether, thus turning every band into a well-rehearsed, well-written instrumental act with no commercial viability.
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Both the above exist. For the first, try Adiemus. For the second, try The Shadows. Both sell well in their respective fields.
 
I completely agree, Black Abyss. If you are a writer who cannot play or sing, please just be a poet. There's no point in setting it to music. If you are a composer with no interest in writing lyrics, then don't do it. I'm certainly not ripping on instrumental music. Some people are just musicians, and not singers or lyricists, and there's nothing wrong with that. But if you're dead set on putting lyrics to your songs, take the time and make them worthwhile.

Forostar said:
Often I have that as well, but sometimes music can strike you in such a manner that I can get hooked by it, already in the first second.
To always know the meaning of a song, before one can enjoy a song, sounds a bit forced in my ears. I am rather open to the the flow, so to speak. It goes by itself. Hearing and feeling music is a natural process. Knowing (the meaning of) lyrics and discussing them make the song richer but I think that at least for me they are not the only key to the start of enjoyment. Often they are the final touch of the enjoyment. The cream on the cake. So lyrics are not in all cases an obstruction for me to enjoy the rest.
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I'm not exactly saying that I'm incapable of enjoying a song until I research it and read the lyrics, but my first impression of the lyrics can definitely stop me from enjoying a song. Even if I like something (a riff, a rhythm, a melody) within the first second, a bad set of lyrics is gonna make me stop listening in the following seconds. It's human nature to respond to rhythm and melody first, but upon hearing a song for the first time, I actively listen to the words.
 
Night Prowler said:
I usually don't pay attention to lyrics. They have to be really dumb to ruin the song for me. By dumb, I mean generic shitload of crap like last Manowar album.
On the other hand, no matter how much the lyrics are awesome, if the music sucks, I won't listen to the song just because of the lyrics -> Bob Dylan
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For me, I could care less if the lyrics are the most generic thing I've ever heard; if the music is great, I'm going to like the song. That goes for any kind of music, shitty manufactured pop included. A good melody is a good melody.

MrKnickerbocker said:
As far as music being slightly more important than lyrics, I think this is occasionally true. But the inverse is just as true. Look at Bob Dylan. Genius lyrics, often mediocre (at best) music. In certain cases, lyrics are vastly more important than music. I will agree that in metal, music seems to take a larger priority.
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...but I understand this, too. Folk/singer-songwriter music is a great example, where the lyrics have to be solid because the only thing you have as a musical backdrop is the vocal melody and (usually) an acoustic guitar. The atmosphere in that style of music is more intimate, which in my opinion demands more importance in the lyrics. When you're listening to a full-on metal onslaught, do you really care what the singer is wailing about? It helps if it's something awesome like tigers or nuclear weapons, but does it really matter?
 
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Detective Beauregard said:
For me, I could care less if the lyrics are the most generic thing I've ever heard; if the music is great, I'm going to like the song. That goes for any kind of music, shitty manufactured pop included. A good melody is a good melody.
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Like Ke$ha?

Detective Beauregard said:
...but I understand this, too. Folk/singer-songwriter music is a great example, where the lyrics have to be solid because the only thing you have as a musical backdrop is the vocal melody and (usually) an acoustic guitar. The atmosphere in that style of music is more intimate, which in my opinion demands more importance in the lyrics. When you're listening to a full-on metal onslaught, do you really care what the singer is wailing about? It helps if it's something awesome like tigers or nuclear weapons, but does it really matter?
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I care about what the singer is wailing, yes. This is just a difference in preference, some people are strictly listening to the music and the lyrics are just a texture, and some people are listening to the lyrics and the music is just a background. Personally, I listen to both equally. Lyrics are definitely more important in folk music, jazz, etc. because the vocals are most likely not being drowned in a cacophony of distorted sound. However, I don't think that makes it ok for metal bands to write shitty lyrics just cause the melody and music is good. On the other hand...

NukeTiger.jpg
 
Lyrics rarely if ever draw me into a song, but they can make me fall in love with one after the music has captured my attention.
It's like "Wow! And she's smart and funny too! And she gets me!"
 
mckindog said:
Lyrics rarely if ever draw me into a song, but they can make me fall in love with one after the music has captured my attention.
It's like "Wow! And she's smart and funny too! And she gets me!"
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This sums it up for me perfectly.
 
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